4 ms·

Protestant work ethic. Work hard is Good. It's deep in the US culture. There's even a quote from Wesley about work in another comment here! So deep that in the

Protestant work ethic. Work hard is Good. It's deep in the US culture. There's even a quote from Wesley about work in another comment here! So deep that in the recent "i was fired from X" articles, the subject points out that their colleagues were lazy and they worked hard. Whereas a southern (or culturally Catholic) European would see that this shows their colleagues also hated the place, and that there's no shame in being lazy. It's not an obsession and not something that can be stopped. It's utterly integral in all of American society even the left wing radical side. Progressivism is basically the belief that doing hard good work brings Good things. (A non protestant culture would emphasise belief and being a better person more than doing good works)

logicchains 6y ago
>(A non protestant culture would emphasise belief and being a better person more than doing good works) This sounds kind of odd, given protestants generally believe in salvation by faith (Jesus saves those who believe), and catholics believe in salvation by works.
- webdev93 6y ago
  It's the opposite, actually.
  - rgblambda 6y ago
    Not true. Although it's an oversimplification to say that Catholics/Eastern Rite believe in faith and works while Protestants believe in faith alone. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0 https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-wo...
  - thinkingemote 6y ago
    Sorry I did over simplify things a bit...
- rjtobin 6y ago
  I think the idea is that early Protestants like Calvinists believed in predestination - that it was already decided who would was going to heaven. One would think this would make the predestined not care about their actions, but the trick is that no one was sure who the predestined were. Since it was believed that the predestined would be exemplars of the faith, people would act like they thought the predestined would act. I’m not a psychologist or a theologian, but it sounds related to that concept in child psychology: when a child misbehaves, it’s better to say “you did a bad thing” than “you are bad”. The latter leads to the child labeling themselves as bad, suggesting that’s the natural way they should act.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > catholics believe in salvation by works. Faith and works. Protestants tend to be about sola scriptura, but nowhere in the Bible does it say faith alone is all that you need. Rather, going to James 2: > 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. > 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” > Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. > 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. * https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202
throw0101a 6y ago
See: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic It should be noted that there was 'work ethic' thinking around before Martin Luther showed up, but it's just that Protestantism turned the dial to 11: > Andersen et al found that the location monasteries of the Catholic Order of Cistercians, and specifically their density, highly correlated to this work ethic in later centuries;[18] ninety percent of these monasteries were founded before the year 1300 AD. Joseph Henrich found that this correlation extends right up to the twenty-first century.[19] Even if Luther hadn't shown up, no doubt there would have been something else that would probably have achieved similar things: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brethren_of_the_Common_Life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brethren_of_the_Common_Life
thinkingemote 6y ago
reading the comments and the links, I'd like to think about this a bit differently. Instead of "working hard is Good" it appears that it's more like "Because I have worked hard and been successful it means that I probably have Gods favour compared to this beggar over there". So working hard is the result from predestination (its already been decided who will get into heaven so we better do our best to look like we are blessed already and working hard and being successful looks like that ), and also a result from a kind of protestantism that advocates spending time intently working as a kind of devotion, and the kind of protestantism that pushes asceticism; saving money, not spending much, not giving cash to the poor but instead donating time and work to charities.. To say Catholics don't believe in hard work being good and only believe in belief isn't correct therefore. I suppose I would clarify by saying that they believe in doing good work but don't view being rich and successful (the end results of working hard) as a way to get into God's good books.

logicchains 6y ago

>(A non protestant culture would emphasise belief and being a better person more than doing good works) This sounds kind of odd, given protestants generally believe in salvation by faith (Jesus saves those who believe), and catholics believe in salvation by works.

webdev93 6y ago
It's the opposite, actually.
- rgblambda 6y ago
  Not true. Although it's an oversimplification to say that Catholics/Eastern Rite believe in faith and works while Protestants believe in faith alone. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0 https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-wo...
- thinkingemote 6y ago
  Sorry I did over simplify things a bit...
rjtobin 6y ago
I think the idea is that early Protestants like Calvinists believed in predestination - that it was already decided who would was going to heaven. One would think this would make the predestined not care about their actions, but the trick is that no one was sure who the predestined were. Since it was believed that the predestined would be exemplars of the faith, people would act like they thought the predestined would act. I’m not a psychologist or a theologian, but it sounds related to that concept in child psychology: when a child misbehaves, it’s better to say “you did a bad thing” than “you are bad”. The latter leads to the child labeling themselves as bad, suggesting that’s the natural way they should act.
throw0101a 6y ago
> catholics believe in salvation by works. Faith and works. Protestants tend to be about sola scriptura, but nowhere in the Bible does it say faith alone is all that you need. Rather, going to James 2: > 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. > 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” > Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. > 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. * https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202

throw0101a 6y ago

See: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic It should be noted that there was 'work ethic' thinking around before Martin Luther showed up, but it's just that Protestantism turned the dial to 11: > Andersen et al found that the location monasteries of the Catholic Order of Cistercians, and specifically their density, highly correlated to this work ethic in later centuries;[18] ninety percent of these monasteries were founded before the year 1300 AD. Joseph Henrich found that this correlation extends right up to the twenty-first century.[19] Even if Luther hadn't shown up, no doubt there would have been something else that would probably have achieved similar things: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brethren_of_the_Common_Life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brethren_of_the_Common_Life

thinkingemote 6y ago

reading the comments and the links, I'd like to think about this a bit differently. Instead of "working hard is Good" it appears that it's more like "Because I have worked hard and been successful it means that I probably have Gods favour compared to this beggar over there". So working hard is the result from predestination (its already been decided who will get into heaven so we better do our best to look like we are blessed already and working hard and being successful looks like that ), and also a result from a kind of protestantism that advocates spending time intently working as a kind of devotion, and the kind of protestantism that pushes asceticism; saving money, not spending much, not giving cash to the poor but instead donating time and work to charities.. To say Catholics don't believe in hard work being good and only believe in belief isn't correct therefore. I suppose I would clarify by saying that they believe in doing good work but don't view being rich and successful (the end results of working hard) as a way to get into God's good books.