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> I have not yet concluded whether I believe in free speech without limits Check out the Paradox of Tolerance, it’s very relevant to deciding on “free speech w

> I have not yet concluded whether I believe in free speech without limits Check out the Paradox of Tolerance, it’s very relevant to deciding on “free speech with / without limits”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
Paradox of Tolerance is a hypocritical bullshit. If you are tolerant with exceptions, you are intolerant, period. People who refer to it hypocritically pretend to have a higher moral ground than their opponents. In fact, they are more or less the same. Truly tolerant people should win the other side with their virtue, and yes, it insanely harder. But it's not hypocrisy.
- ttt0 6y ago
  Just wait until someone will come up with "Paradox of Human Rights" lol.
  - nec4b 6y ago
    Don't worry when they do, it will be used as a cheap thought killer meme all over HN, like the "Paradox of Tolerance" is being used now.
  - pas 6y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhRBsJYWR8Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhRBsJYWR8Q (The Problem With Human Rights by Jonas Čeika aka. Cuck Philosophy)
- yazaddaruvala 6y ago
  > Paradox of Tolerance is a hypocritical bullshit. Quite frankly I’m finding it hard to respond. > Truly tolerant people should win the other side with their virtue, and yes, it insanely harder. Popper does a really good job explaining why this is not possible, and therefore tolerance without limit is not possible. I’d prefer tolerance without limit to be the optimal strategy, but I do need some convincing that it’s possible. Do you mind adding constructive criticism so we can work on a better mental model for tolerance and free speech?
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    That's easy. Tolerance, is willingness to accept behaviour and beliefs that are different from your own, although you might not agree with or approve of them [1]. People who carve themselves an exemption to not accept some behaviour or beliefs, are literally contradicting this definition. Yet, at the same time they pretend to be tolerant. There is a word for that in the English language: hypocrisy. So, how do tolerant people fight the intolerant? Maybe, we have some similar precedents from the past. Turning the other cheek principle [2] and nonresistance movement [3] have worked out quite well for Gandhi. Educate, explain, suffer injustice, yet, stay true to your principles. That's the way to the better future for humanity. (I'm not claiming to be a fully tolerant person myself. I'm just calling out hypocrites who pretend to be ones) [1]: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tolerance https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/toleranc... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonresistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonresistance
    - kingaillas 6y ago
      That's great it worked for Gandhi, but I'd argue the tolerant HAVE been doing that - stretching back to MLK's marches, and yet here we are (in the US) where a violent mob stormed the capitol. Tolerating them may be better for humanity but it takes to long for those folks to disappear from the gene pool. And, they are armed due to the 2nd Amendment, which Gandhi didn't have to deal with. Sure, guns exist around the world but they are in massive abundance in the US.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
        Confronting a violent mob has nothing to do with tolerance. Those applying force can be stopped, with force. Suppressing their right to speak, to communicate, to bank, to work, is quite a different matter, more suitable to real fascists many are so scared about. And I don't even want to touch the subject or very recent far more destructive mobs which not only were not silenced, but instead were celebrated and praised for their principled position
- theonlybutlet 6y ago
  Not quite, it still works to an extent. In this case it's quite clear those utilising Parler are doing so to spread their intolerant message. I'd say applying the Paradox of Tolerance is not hypocritical but more asymptotic, i.e. we will tend toward zero but never reach it.
- LordDragonfang 6y ago
  So would you agree with a statement that "we should just be tolerant of the KKK and win them to our side with virtue", then? Note that this isn't hyperbole for rhetorical effect, that is literally the kind of intolerance that the paradox of tolerance is based on, and seems to be what you're advocating, by extension.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    Yes, I fully agree with that statement. You can't just beat the racists from KKK into submission. You can only show them that their convictions are wrong.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - MrMan 6y ago
      that's incorrect. what seems to have been proven to work is trying to limit their ability to congregate, and to recruit.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
        It's a hollow victory if you'll become a fascist to fight fascists.
        pas 6y ago
        Just a nitpick, but fascism inherently has a component about a faux nostalgia for a vague better times, ultranationalism, and so on, and simply by suppressing speech one does not became a fastics, you probably mean totalitarian.
  - rainbowzootsuit 6y ago
    There's at least one person I've heard of of doing this type of interaction to change the minds of KKK members— Daryl Davis. He's certainly an uncommon example though. Most people who are in stark disagreement with another's views don't seek them out as potential friends. “Ignorance breeds fear. We fear those things we don’t understand. If we don’t put a lid on that fear and keep that fear in check, that fear in turn will breed hatred because we hate those things that frighten us. “If we don’t keep that hatred in check, that hatred in turn will breed destruction. We want to destroy those things that we hate. Why? Because they frighten us. But guess what? They may have been harmless and we were just ignorant.” https://lanthorn.com/61539/news/news-daryl-davis-lecture-at-gvsu/ https://lanthorn.com/61539/news/news-daryl-davis-lecture-at-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/features/klan.htm https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/features/klan.ht...
- destroyHN 6y ago
  Calm yourself as you use one of the most moderated platforms on the internet to spout off.
- halfnormalform 6y ago
  I don’t take tips about higher moral ground and virtue from anyone who thinks bullshit is a countable noun.
roenxi 6y ago
Alright, tolerance without limits is off the table. That is the easy part done with. What proactive tolerances are we working with? Because the standard on A-A-G seems to be "we're only going to tolerate things we mostly agree with" - which is a faux tolerance. If they can't tolerate the speech of a sitting president then we haven't really reached the point where the paradox of tolerance is at play. That is routine intolerance. To be tolerant there has to be an element of putting up with things they genuinely disagree with.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

Paradox of Tolerance is a hypocritical bullshit. If you are tolerant with exceptions, you are intolerant, period. People who refer to it hypocritically pretend to have a higher moral ground than their opponents. In fact, they are more or less the same. Truly tolerant people should win the other side with their virtue, and yes, it insanely harder. But it's not hypocrisy.

ttt0 6y ago
Just wait until someone will come up with "Paradox of Human Rights" lol.
- nec4b 6y ago
  Don't worry when they do, it will be used as a cheap thought killer meme all over HN, like the "Paradox of Tolerance" is being used now.
- pas 6y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhRBsJYWR8Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhRBsJYWR8Q (The Problem With Human Rights by Jonas Čeika aka. Cuck Philosophy)
yazaddaruvala 6y ago
> Paradox of Tolerance is a hypocritical bullshit. Quite frankly I’m finding it hard to respond. > Truly tolerant people should win the other side with their virtue, and yes, it insanely harder. Popper does a really good job explaining why this is not possible, and therefore tolerance without limit is not possible. I’d prefer tolerance without limit to be the optimal strategy, but I do need some convincing that it’s possible. Do you mind adding constructive criticism so we can work on a better mental model for tolerance and free speech?
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  That's easy. Tolerance, is willingness to accept behaviour and beliefs that are different from your own, although you might not agree with or approve of them [1]. People who carve themselves an exemption to not accept some behaviour or beliefs, are literally contradicting this definition. Yet, at the same time they pretend to be tolerant. There is a word for that in the English language: hypocrisy. So, how do tolerant people fight the intolerant? Maybe, we have some similar precedents from the past. Turning the other cheek principle [2] and nonresistance movement [3] have worked out quite well for Gandhi. Educate, explain, suffer injustice, yet, stay true to your principles. That's the way to the better future for humanity. (I'm not claiming to be a fully tolerant person myself. I'm just calling out hypocrites who pretend to be ones) [1]: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tolerance https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/toleranc... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonresistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonresistance
  - kingaillas 6y ago
    That's great it worked for Gandhi, but I'd argue the tolerant HAVE been doing that - stretching back to MLK's marches, and yet here we are (in the US) where a violent mob stormed the capitol. Tolerating them may be better for humanity but it takes to long for those folks to disappear from the gene pool. And, they are armed due to the 2nd Amendment, which Gandhi didn't have to deal with. Sure, guns exist around the world but they are in massive abundance in the US.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      Confronting a violent mob has nothing to do with tolerance. Those applying force can be stopped, with force. Suppressing their right to speak, to communicate, to bank, to work, is quite a different matter, more suitable to real fascists many are so scared about. And I don't even want to touch the subject or very recent far more destructive mobs which not only were not silenced, but instead were celebrated and praised for their principled position
theonlybutlet 6y ago
Not quite, it still works to an extent. In this case it's quite clear those utilising Parler are doing so to spread their intolerant message. I'd say applying the Paradox of Tolerance is not hypocritical but more asymptotic, i.e. we will tend toward zero but never reach it.
LordDragonfang 6y ago
So would you agree with a statement that "we should just be tolerant of the KKK and win them to our side with virtue", then? Note that this isn't hyperbole for rhetorical effect, that is literally the kind of intolerance that the paradox of tolerance is based on, and seems to be what you're advocating, by extension.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  Yes, I fully agree with that statement. You can't just beat the racists from KKK into submission. You can only show them that their convictions are wrong.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - MrMan 6y ago
    that's incorrect. what seems to have been proven to work is trying to limit their ability to congregate, and to recruit.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      It's a hollow victory if you'll become a fascist to fight fascists.
      - pas 6y ago
        Just a nitpick, but fascism inherently has a component about a faux nostalgia for a vague better times, ultranationalism, and so on, and simply by suppressing speech one does not became a fastics, you probably mean totalitarian.
- rainbowzootsuit 6y ago
  There's at least one person I've heard of of doing this type of interaction to change the minds of KKK members— Daryl Davis. He's certainly an uncommon example though. Most people who are in stark disagreement with another's views don't seek them out as potential friends. “Ignorance breeds fear. We fear those things we don’t understand. If we don’t put a lid on that fear and keep that fear in check, that fear in turn will breed hatred because we hate those things that frighten us. “If we don’t keep that hatred in check, that hatred in turn will breed destruction. We want to destroy those things that we hate. Why? Because they frighten us. But guess what? They may have been harmless and we were just ignorant.” https://lanthorn.com/61539/news/news-daryl-davis-lecture-at-gvsu/ https://lanthorn.com/61539/news/news-daryl-davis-lecture-at-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/features/klan.htm https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/features/klan.ht...
destroyHN 6y ago
Calm yourself as you use one of the most moderated platforms on the internet to spout off.
halfnormalform 6y ago
I don’t take tips about higher moral ground and virtue from anyone who thinks bullshit is a countable noun.

roenxi 6y ago

Alright, tolerance without limits is off the table. That is the easy part done with. What proactive tolerances are we working with? Because the standard on A-A-G seems to be "we're only going to tolerate things we mostly agree with" - which is a faux tolerance. If they can't tolerate the speech of a sitting president then we haven't really reached the point where the paradox of tolerance is at play. That is routine intolerance. To be tolerant there has to be an element of putting up with things they genuinely disagree with.