4 ms·

“After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down. We’re going to walk down any one you want, but I think right here. W

“After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down. We’re going to walk down any one you want, but I think right here. We’re going walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women. We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.”

wilsynet 6y ago
You know, you aren’t going to catch Trump say “please go down there and break in and kill people”. That would be directing violence. But given the context of everything, did he incite violence? You’re saying I’m misinterpreting Trump. Given the situation he’s set up, is it a surprise at all that many others might have interpreted what he said in the same way? If a BLM organizer says “lets go out there and protest peacefully” and then follows up with “but you know that Footlocker on Main and 34th? We definitely shouldn’t burn the place down. But you know, the owners of that place are awful people. We need to show strength. They are evil. But don’t burn it down. But really they’re evil”, I’d say that was inciting violence too.
throwawaysea 6y ago
Please do correct me if I am reading this differently from how you read it. To me, this looks like someone saying "we're going to go protest", which people have said many thousands of times in the last year. It does not advocate for violence or anything illegal there. The last bit where he says "you’ll never take back our country with weakness", seems to be misinterpreted by some - what Trump was saying is that the legislators who weren't challenging the results were being weak, and that to win [the election] you have to show strength. All of this reads to me like very typical motivational bluster that accompanies situations like protests. BLM organizers also use phrasings like "we're going to take back our city" and "show them our power" and so on.
- wilsynet 6y ago
  To put this quote in context, I’ll also add that before Trump addressed the crowd, Giuliani said "If we are wrong we will be made fools of, but if we're right a lot of them will go to jail. So let's have trial by combat." Trump asked people to come. He’s spent the last several weeks asserting that the election was stolen. They stole your vote. Saying these people are corrupt and ruining this country. His personal lawyer tells the crowd that they should have trial by combat. Trump says they need march on the Capital and show strength. Be strong. Take back our country. Yeah, that’s incitement.
  - throwawaysea 6y ago
    To balance things out, consider also that 20 minutes into his speech, Trump said "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard." I think it's important to take a charitable interpretation of what your opponents say, and to not assume malice. It's also worth keeping Hanlon's Razor in mind (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor). Regarding the "trial by combat" line - an article on Giulani's speech (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/rudy-giuliani-dc-trump-rally-b1783428.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-electio...) describes it like this: > While baselessly claiming that Democrats won elections because of fraud, Mr Giuliani bellowed to the crowd: “Who hides evidence? Criminals hide evidence, not honest people!” > He continued: “Over the next ten days, we get to see the machines that are crooked, the ballots that are fraudulent, and if we're wrong, we will be made fools of. But if we're right, a lot of them will go to jail.” > Mr Giuliani then suddenly yelled: "Let's have trial by combat!" to lacklustre cheers from the crowd. To me this does not sound like a call to violence. It sounds like a bad joke or poorly-worded bluster or an attempt at hyperbole. Giuliani was quick to condemn the riot at the capitol, for what it's worth (https://twitter.com/RudyGiuliani/status/1347149858000556032 https://twitter.com/RudyGiuliani/status/1347149858000556032).
    - wilsynet 6y ago
      This happens a lot with Trump. He implies contradictory things at the same time and then says he doesn’t mean it that way when confronted. Meanwhile, everyone who was primed to hear the horrible/terrible/deplorable version of the message heard exactly what they wanted to hear. He also does this with Tweets. Oh that retweet of that white supremecist, just a re-tweet. Doesn’t mean anything. Except there are good people on both sides. But it does mean something when you are the President and you have a large number of followers. People have been getting death threats for weeks about the stolen election. The only thing this President has done is continue to amp up the lies and demands of his followers to do something, anything. The world isn’t a programming language, there’s no state machine and no precise instruction set. It is full of hints and innuendo. Please interpret Donald Trump in context.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

wilsynet 6y ago

You know, you aren’t going to catch Trump say “please go down there and break in and kill people”. That would be directing violence. But given the context of everything, did he incite violence? You’re saying I’m misinterpreting Trump. Given the situation he’s set up, is it a surprise at all that many others might have interpreted what he said in the same way? If a BLM organizer says “lets go out there and protest peacefully” and then follows up with “but you know that Footlocker on Main and 34th? We definitely shouldn’t burn the place down. But you know, the owners of that place are awful people. We need to show strength. They are evil. But don’t burn it down. But really they’re evil”, I’d say that was inciting violence too.

throwawaysea 6y ago

Please do correct me if I am reading this differently from how you read it. To me, this looks like someone saying "we're going to go protest", which people have said many thousands of times in the last year. It does not advocate for violence or anything illegal there. The last bit where he says "you’ll never take back our country with weakness", seems to be misinterpreted by some - what Trump was saying is that the legislators who weren't challenging the results were being weak, and that to win [the election] you have to show strength. All of this reads to me like very typical motivational bluster that accompanies situations like protests. BLM organizers also use phrasings like "we're going to take back our city" and "show them our power" and so on.

wilsynet 6y ago
To put this quote in context, I’ll also add that before Trump addressed the crowd, Giuliani said "If we are wrong we will be made fools of, but if we're right a lot of them will go to jail. So let's have trial by combat." Trump asked people to come. He’s spent the last several weeks asserting that the election was stolen. They stole your vote. Saying these people are corrupt and ruining this country. His personal lawyer tells the crowd that they should have trial by combat. Trump says they need march on the Capital and show strength. Be strong. Take back our country. Yeah, that’s incitement.
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  To balance things out, consider also that 20 minutes into his speech, Trump said "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard." I think it's important to take a charitable interpretation of what your opponents say, and to not assume malice. It's also worth keeping Hanlon's Razor in mind (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor). Regarding the "trial by combat" line - an article on Giulani's speech (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/rudy-giuliani-dc-trump-rally-b1783428.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-electio...) describes it like this: > While baselessly claiming that Democrats won elections because of fraud, Mr Giuliani bellowed to the crowd: “Who hides evidence? Criminals hide evidence, not honest people!” > He continued: “Over the next ten days, we get to see the machines that are crooked, the ballots that are fraudulent, and if we're wrong, we will be made fools of. But if we're right, a lot of them will go to jail.” > Mr Giuliani then suddenly yelled: "Let's have trial by combat!" to lacklustre cheers from the crowd. To me this does not sound like a call to violence. It sounds like a bad joke or poorly-worded bluster or an attempt at hyperbole. Giuliani was quick to condemn the riot at the capitol, for what it's worth (https://twitter.com/RudyGiuliani/status/1347149858000556032 https://twitter.com/RudyGiuliani/status/1347149858000556032).
  - wilsynet 6y ago
    This happens a lot with Trump. He implies contradictory things at the same time and then says he doesn’t mean it that way when confronted. Meanwhile, everyone who was primed to hear the horrible/terrible/deplorable version of the message heard exactly what they wanted to hear. He also does this with Tweets. Oh that retweet of that white supremecist, just a re-tweet. Doesn’t mean anything. Except there are good people on both sides. But it does mean something when you are the President and you have a large number of followers. People have been getting death threats for weeks about the stolen election. The only thing this President has done is continue to amp up the lies and demands of his followers to do something, anything. The world isn’t a programming language, there’s no state machine and no precise instruction set. It is full of hints and innuendo. Please interpret Donald Trump in context.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]