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The government does determine what is and isn't allowed speech. Libel is not allowed speech. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre when there is no fire. Y

The government does determine what is and isn't allowed speech. Libel is not allowed speech. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre when there is no fire. You can get in trouble inducing others to commit crimes. Etc.

Rapzid 6y ago
> The government does determine what is and isn't allowed speech That's as hyperbolic as my omission is glaring. Yes, there are a few very narrow exceptions made. I would say, though, that our 1st amendment rights are stronger today than ever.
- rebuilder 6y ago
  The important point is that the government has the power to make those exceptions, and exercises that power. It's the difference between absolute free speech and the messy reality we have.
  - dash2 6y ago
    But the initial point was normative, not factual. Beyond narrowly defined limits, the government ought not to be able to police speech, and being democratically elected is not a sufficient check, as John Stuart Mill pointed out long ago.
sixstringtheory 6y ago
Libel is not a crime, it is a tort. You may be sued by someone you defame, but no government entity or agent may imprison or fine you.
- rebuilder 6y ago
  Wikipedia tells me there is such a thing as criminal libel, although it is rarely prosecuted. But that's beside the point IMO. I omitted that libel generally does not fall under criminal law because IMO the fact that the legal system can be used by private individuals to enforce libel laws makes them a government restriction on free speech.
  - sixstringtheory 6y ago
    Not in the US. Or maybe you could link a source you claim to have? The government does not originate tort claims of libel. It is there to mediate disputes that citizens bring against each other. Because the next best thing is people committing acts of violence against each other.
    - rebuilder 6y ago
      Sure. Like I said, it's Wikipedia, so take it as you will: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law The relevant section: "Criminal libel is rarely prosecuted but exists on the books in many states, and is constitutionally permitted in circumstances essentially identical to those where civil libel liability is constitutional." Again, this is really beside the point IMO, as I mentioned before. I only brought it up due to being an unreconstituted pedant, unable to help myself.

Rapzid 6y ago

> The government does determine what is and isn't allowed speech That's as hyperbolic as my omission is glaring. Yes, there are a few very narrow exceptions made. I would say, though, that our 1st amendment rights are stronger today than ever.

rebuilder 6y ago
The important point is that the government has the power to make those exceptions, and exercises that power. It's the difference between absolute free speech and the messy reality we have.
- dash2 6y ago
  But the initial point was normative, not factual. Beyond narrowly defined limits, the government ought not to be able to police speech, and being democratically elected is not a sufficient check, as John Stuart Mill pointed out long ago.

sixstringtheory 6y ago

Libel is not a crime, it is a tort. You may be sued by someone you defame, but no government entity or agent may imprison or fine you.

rebuilder 6y ago
Wikipedia tells me there is such a thing as criminal libel, although it is rarely prosecuted. But that's beside the point IMO. I omitted that libel generally does not fall under criminal law because IMO the fact that the legal system can be used by private individuals to enforce libel laws makes them a government restriction on free speech.
- sixstringtheory 6y ago
  Not in the US. Or maybe you could link a source you claim to have? The government does not originate tort claims of libel. It is there to mediate disputes that citizens bring against each other. Because the next best thing is people committing acts of violence against each other.
  - rebuilder 6y ago
    Sure. Like I said, it's Wikipedia, so take it as you will: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law The relevant section: "Criminal libel is rarely prosecuted but exists on the books in many states, and is constitutionally permitted in circumstances essentially identical to those where civil libel liability is constitutional." Again, this is really beside the point IMO, as I mentioned before. I only brought it up due to being an unreconstituted pedant, unable to help myself.