5 ms·

Genuine question: You say you fear they’ll do so, but if they’re being forced out of society — what choice do they have but to build their own?

btmorex 6y ago
What they need to do is accept that Donald Trump lossed, shut the fuck up, and get in line. They're currently advocating for a revolution (civil war really). And if you're like: but were they really? Look at content on Parler, the answer is yes they were. You can't expect any sort of appeasement when you're calling for violence.
- AnHonestComment 6y ago
  You’re telling a group of people who lost their livelihoods and who watched their cities smolder for six months as far left militias committed crime after crime to “sit down and shut up”. Has that strategy ever worked, in history? Calling it an “insurrection” that a single demonstration at the capitol happened after six months of weekly to daily gang activity from far left militias promoted by politicians is just gaslighting. The pearl clutching about “appeasement” when Kamala Harris advocated for rioting and multiple prominent Democrats created bail funds supporting far left violence is laughable. The reason the DC event happened was because you already tried a media blackout of their concerns and telling them to shut up. They forcibly told you “no”. Now what?
bazooka_penguin 6y ago
The problem isn't that they have to build their own, to me it's clear they want to. The problem is that they feel they're being shut down or invaded or whatever, when they attempt to build their own services and communities. Their responses has been to double down and create even broader spaces going from small groups to alternative social media, and I think, eventually an alternate society and political system. At that point the legitimacy of the US government will be challenged, and that's already beginning to happen, and we may have a civil conflict. They've been creating smaller more exclusive communities for years. They have their own youtube news and fan/media channels, they have their own internet personalities and figureheads even among the mainstream (like dr disrespect, who seemed to be popular with right-leaning gamers I know), they tend to congregate in various indie games (especially war and FPS games), they have their own forums and online spaces (e.g. private discords; thedonald reddit clone, alternate subreddits; parler; 4chan, which is older than any of this but decidedly more right wing nowadays than I remember 10 years ago), and so forth. The problem is that they feel these spaces and communities are under attack. Parler, while I don't disagree with the right of FAANG companies to decouple from parler, is just the latest space that's "under attack". This isn't unique to Parler, I've seen the right complain about this in gaming, movies and comics (like Star Wars), tabletop games, etc. for years and I know people who were otherwise apolitical but shifted to the right because they felt their hobbies and fanbases were being (unfairly) criticized and changed by outsiders specifically from the left-wing who don't appreciate the original characteristics. And I even agree to some degree that it's hard to have your own space without being attacked. For example, recently I am somewhat aware that Hololive idols, basically asian/japanese game and lifestyle streamers using 3D avatars, have been under (what I think is) undue scrutiny from some feminists for being sexist, pandering to pedophiles, and fueling misogyny. I've seen similar attacks on anime and on some games. Personally I think there's more of a racial element, given western phobia towards asians, in a lot of these attacks and criticisms because extra criticism seem to be targeted at japanese or asian media, but in any case, people on the right think it's mostly political and the political divide has not only worsened it's caused people to take sides and move from a localized feuds (fighting over media like anime and Star Wars) to a broader battle (politics, values, belief systems). And as far as I've observed, this tracks with their attempts and successes at creating increasingly broader alternative platforms. From having their own spaces within larger communities to creating alternative platforms, like parler, or hijacking sites like 4chan, and actually making them viable, unlike earlier attempts (like voat). As of January 6 I think we've come to the point where enough people have aligned politically on the right that they're going to want their own real world society, and not just an online one. Shutting down parler is just going to accelerate the sentiment imo, because as far as I've seen people kind of quantize their world views when (they believe) they're under attack, and group up. They don't become more understanding and broader minded, they become more tribal. So if the right wants their own society just let them have it before internet fights become real ones. Personally I think it's still a small amount of people, my experiences are just anecdotal based on what I've seen in communities I was part of and people I know, but I think the sentiment is growing rapidly and trying to shut things down isn't working, at best it's a roadblock that pushes problems down the road, at worst it makes people go underground and become more competent at hiding in plain sight. edit: My fear in particular is that they'll resort to wide scale political, maybe racial, violence. Not that they want right-wing spaces. I'm asian, a lot of us already kind of self-segregate and I don't see any issue with it to be frank. I know integration is important in the US but I don't see a problem with people wanting their own safe space where they're left alone, although it's sad it's come to the point where people attack the capitol.
- AnHonestComment 6y ago
  I appreciate the thoughtful response. I would say that Q Shaman photo-op is the right wing response to far left protests staging dramatic photos with the police all summer. My summary: Left: “Look, we can bully the police and people will cheer!” Right: “We can touch you anytime, anywhere.” Left: “Shut the FUCK UP!” My fear is it’s not going to stop. Star Wars, something so universal I saw xwing graffiti in Cancun, MX has been purposefully debased by people like Kathleen Kennedy — to astroturfed praise from corporate media. Their sales tell the true story. That Disney+ crashed when Luke Skywalker appeared tells the true story. My fear is what we see at Harvard and Yale, where Asian applicants are discriminated against to “balance races” or whatever the racist euphemism of the day is just won’t stop. We’ll see a reconstruction of institutionalized racism. I think you’re right that the criticism of Asian media has a racial element — but it’s also about control. As the far left burned down US institutions (eg, Disney and WM), many Americans adopted Japanese and Chinese media as surrogates. (Eg, I watch more anime than Hollywood content.) Understandably, Japan and China told left wing groups where to put their opinions on how they run their own culture. That turned into a full on power struggle. It’s very neo-colonial. I think either we stand up to the racism and gaslighting now — or the censorship is here to stay. I would personally hold the Asian community up as one that has integrated meaningfully into America at large, while not abandoning their own identity. Teriyaki, sushi, and American Chinese food are everywhere; anime and HK martial arts flicks are semi-popular; most Americans can name a few major events in Asia; etc. Personally, I consider “rooftop Koreans” to be an American archetype. Is it so wrong I, as a Polish Jew, want to do the same? ...to celebrate my heritage and discuss the problems I face honestly?
- mrtesthah 6y ago
  It's probably impossible for the right-wing to create their own society, because they're geographically and economically mixed in with the rest of the country. The most salient political dividing line is ~800 people per square mile. Social media platforms already long ago decided not to allow groups such as ISIS to propagandize and organize online. Why would they allow any other terrorist groups? Those calling for the usurpation of democracy through insurrection and violence are equivalent. >So if the right wants their own society just let them have it before internet fights become real ones. We've already seen many instances of right-wing terroristic violence in the form of bombings (attempted and successful), mass shootings, etc.; many of these have been organized online in extreme right-wing spaces. It's an easy case to be made that allowing such spaces to proliferate will lead to more violence. But to equate all right-wing speech with terrorism seems to be succumbing to a self-fulfilling prophecy while at the same time justifying the very actions you're opposing. If we truly want inclusive political discourse, we need to acknowledge the validity of traditional conservative viewpoints while drawing a clear distinction between those viewpoints and reactionary terroristic violence. With this understanding in mind, newspapers such as the NYTimes have long featured conservative columnists with critical viewpoints. Perhaps such mainstream publications should try harder to do this. There is plenty of room for intelligent discourse, but hateful attacks (verbal and otherwise), simply have no place in a healthy society.

btmorex 6y ago

What they need to do is accept that Donald Trump lossed, shut the fuck up, and get in line. They're currently advocating for a revolution (civil war really). And if you're like: but were they really? Look at content on Parler, the answer is yes they were. You can't expect any sort of appeasement when you're calling for violence.

AnHonestComment 6y ago
You’re telling a group of people who lost their livelihoods and who watched their cities smolder for six months as far left militias committed crime after crime to “sit down and shut up”. Has that strategy ever worked, in history? Calling it an “insurrection” that a single demonstration at the capitol happened after six months of weekly to daily gang activity from far left militias promoted by politicians is just gaslighting. The pearl clutching about “appeasement” when Kamala Harris advocated for rioting and multiple prominent Democrats created bail funds supporting far left violence is laughable. The reason the DC event happened was because you already tried a media blackout of their concerns and telling them to shut up. They forcibly told you “no”. Now what?

bazooka_penguin 6y ago

The problem isn't that they have to build their own, to me it's clear they want to. The problem is that they feel they're being shut down or invaded or whatever, when they attempt to build their own services and communities. Their responses has been to double down and create even broader spaces going from small groups to alternative social media, and I think, eventually an alternate society and political system. At that point the legitimacy of the US government will be challenged, and that's already beginning to happen, and we may have a civil conflict. They've been creating smaller more exclusive communities for years. They have their own youtube news and fan/media channels, they have their own internet personalities and figureheads even among the mainstream (like dr disrespect, who seemed to be popular with right-leaning gamers I know), they tend to congregate in various indie games (especially war and FPS games), they have their own forums and online spaces (e.g. private discords; thedonald reddit clone, alternate subreddits; parler; 4chan, which is older than any of this but decidedly more right wing nowadays than I remember 10 years ago), and so forth. The problem is that they feel these spaces and communities are under attack. Parler, while I don't disagree with the right of FAANG companies to decouple from parler, is just the latest space that's "under attack". This isn't unique to Parler, I've seen the right complain about this in gaming, movies and comics (like Star Wars), tabletop games, etc. for years and I know people who were otherwise apolitical but shifted to the right because they felt their hobbies and fanbases were being (unfairly) criticized and changed by outsiders specifically from the left-wing who don't appreciate the original characteristics. And I even agree to some degree that it's hard to have your own space without being attacked. For example, recently I am somewhat aware that Hololive idols, basically asian/japanese game and lifestyle streamers using 3D avatars, have been under (what I think is) undue scrutiny from some feminists for being sexist, pandering to pedophiles, and fueling misogyny. I've seen similar attacks on anime and on some games. Personally I think there's more of a racial element, given western phobia towards asians, in a lot of these attacks and criticisms because extra criticism seem to be targeted at japanese or asian media, but in any case, people on the right think it's mostly political and the political divide has not only worsened it's caused people to take sides and move from a localized feuds (fighting over media like anime and Star Wars) to a broader battle (politics, values, belief systems). And as far as I've observed, this tracks with their attempts and successes at creating increasingly broader alternative platforms. From having their own spaces within larger communities to creating alternative platforms, like parler, or hijacking sites like 4chan, and actually making them viable, unlike earlier attempts (like voat). As of January 6 I think we've come to the point where enough people have aligned politically on the right that they're going to want their own real world society, and not just an online one. Shutting down parler is just going to accelerate the sentiment imo, because as far as I've seen people kind of quantize their world views when (they believe) they're under attack, and group up. They don't become more understanding and broader minded, they become more tribal. So if the right wants their own society just let them have it before internet fights become real ones. Personally I think it's still a small amount of people, my experiences are just anecdotal based on what I've seen in communities I was part of and people I know, but I think the sentiment is growing rapidly and trying to shut things down isn't working, at best it's a roadblock that pushes problems down the road, at worst it makes people go underground and become more competent at hiding in plain sight. edit: My fear in particular is that they'll resort to wide scale political, maybe racial, violence. Not that they want right-wing spaces. I'm asian, a lot of us already kind of self-segregate and I don't see any issue with it to be frank. I know integration is important in the US but I don't see a problem with people wanting their own safe space where they're left alone, although it's sad it's come to the point where people attack the capitol.

AnHonestComment 6y ago
I appreciate the thoughtful response. I would say that Q Shaman photo-op is the right wing response to far left protests staging dramatic photos with the police all summer. My summary: Left: “Look, we can bully the police and people will cheer!” Right: “We can touch you anytime, anywhere.” Left: “Shut the FUCK UP!” My fear is it’s not going to stop. Star Wars, something so universal I saw xwing graffiti in Cancun, MX has been purposefully debased by people like Kathleen Kennedy — to astroturfed praise from corporate media. Their sales tell the true story. That Disney+ crashed when Luke Skywalker appeared tells the true story. My fear is what we see at Harvard and Yale, where Asian applicants are discriminated against to “balance races” or whatever the racist euphemism of the day is just won’t stop. We’ll see a reconstruction of institutionalized racism. I think you’re right that the criticism of Asian media has a racial element — but it’s also about control. As the far left burned down US institutions (eg, Disney and WM), many Americans adopted Japanese and Chinese media as surrogates. (Eg, I watch more anime than Hollywood content.) Understandably, Japan and China told left wing groups where to put their opinions on how they run their own culture. That turned into a full on power struggle. It’s very neo-colonial. I think either we stand up to the racism and gaslighting now — or the censorship is here to stay. I would personally hold the Asian community up as one that has integrated meaningfully into America at large, while not abandoning their own identity. Teriyaki, sushi, and American Chinese food are everywhere; anime and HK martial arts flicks are semi-popular; most Americans can name a few major events in Asia; etc. Personally, I consider “rooftop Koreans” to be an American archetype. Is it so wrong I, as a Polish Jew, want to do the same? ...to celebrate my heritage and discuss the problems I face honestly?
mrtesthah 6y ago
It's probably impossible for the right-wing to create their own society, because they're geographically and economically mixed in with the rest of the country. The most salient political dividing line is ~800 people per square mile. Social media platforms already long ago decided not to allow groups such as ISIS to propagandize and organize online. Why would they allow any other terrorist groups? Those calling for the usurpation of democracy through insurrection and violence are equivalent. >So if the right wants their own society just let them have it before internet fights become real ones. We've already seen many instances of right-wing terroristic violence in the form of bombings (attempted and successful), mass shootings, etc.; many of these have been organized online in extreme right-wing spaces. It's an easy case to be made that allowing such spaces to proliferate will lead to more violence. But to equate all right-wing speech with terrorism seems to be succumbing to a self-fulfilling prophecy while at the same time justifying the very actions you're opposing. If we truly want inclusive political discourse, we need to acknowledge the validity of traditional conservative viewpoints while drawing a clear distinction between those viewpoints and reactionary terroristic violence. With this understanding in mind, newspapers such as the NYTimes have long featured conservative columnists with critical viewpoints. Perhaps such mainstream publications should try harder to do this. There is plenty of room for intelligent discourse, but hateful attacks (verbal and otherwise), simply have no place in a healthy society.