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>I'm distressed and saddened at how many of the free speech proponents on HN are treating the events of January 6 as if it was just another protest and not an e
by WindyLakeReturn 6y ago
>I'm distressed and saddened at how many of the free speech proponents on HN are treating the events of January 6 as if it was just another protest and not an existential threat to the republic.
Could you present an explanation for why?
> If the mob had managed to find and destroy the electoral certificates,
Then nothing different would happen because this particular part of the vote is a formality. Well, the news would be even more one sided on this, but nothing else.
>or if the flex-cuffs guys had captured members of congress
Assuming worse case and he actually killed someone, why would it be much different than attacks in the past like the one at the soft/baseball game. As you said, that it failed is irrelevant to the intended goal.
>The western liberal value of free speech has never extended to incitement of violence.
Yes it has.
First, there is political speech which is going through the most proper channels to enact violence. If you get a law passed, you are forcing people to comply under threat of violence. Talking about changing laws is very central to free speech and includes protecting people pushing even the most cartoonishly evil laws.
But on a more general since, still sticking to US law, the courts have allowed for calls to violence in general and have been very limited in how they restrict it. For example look at all that was said during the summer that was encouraging of riots (not the things said in support of the protests, but said in support of the riots). That is still largely protected free speech.
And on an even more general scale, the concept of free speech does apply to what the founding fathers were discussing leading up to and during the revolutionary war. Sure, Britain's laws would have punished them for it, but the value of free speech that let them rebel is something that was understood and accepted by those forming the new government.
- sanp 6y agoIf you are going with what the founding fathers wanted then you should be comfortable with PRIVATE (as in not the government) companies doing whatever the hell they want within their terms of service. No contract has been breached when Apple, Google, Amazon deplatformed Parler. If you want to make this into "but they control speech on the internet with their reach..." then it is no longer about "what the founding fathers" wanted and you should be willing to make this a non-absolutist argument in which case it is mo longer clear cut that restricting this speech is bad.
- WindyLakeReturn 6y agoYou may want to reread the comment I was responding to. I quote it again. >The western liberal value of free speech has never extended to incitement of violence. Never implies going back in time. I was pointing out the historical opinion given does not line up with existing evidence. As such your point point about private companies is irrelevant. Though I can still point out that we are looking at private companies that are serving as utilities and being given special protections (contracts, regulatory capture, and similar) by the government to the extent they can be considered part of the government.
- MrFlynn 6y ago> > If the mob had managed to find and destroy the electoral certificates, > Then nothing different would happen because this particular part of the vote is a formality. Well, the news would be even more one sided on this, but nothing else. I can guarantee to you Trump would have used this an excuse to try to stay in power, or at least use it as another excuse on top of the ones he has concocted already. He's taken plenty of advantage of grey areas to wreak havoc on administrative norms. Furthermore, it would likely have emboldened his supporters to undertake further violent action more quickly.
- throwaway201103 6y agoAnd he'd have had zero supporters at that point. He'd already lost the VP, who refused his request to reject the votes. Absolutely nobody would have stood with him on extending his term as a result of a violent interruption of this ceremony in the Congress.
- MrFlynn 6y ago130 Republicans in the House voted to overturn two states' election results, not to mention he has an undeniable popular following. I seriously doubt he would have trouble with finding support with a lot of people if he had taken advantage of this. His supporters will follow him no matter what. If storming the capitol wasn't crossing the line, quite frankly, nothing is for them.