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You know, Linux in general is probably the best example of this. Its success doesn't need to be defined by the desktop. When people bring up desktop Linux, I a

by riffic 6y ago

You know, Linux in general is probably the best example of this. Its success doesn't need to be defined by the desktop. When people bring up desktop Linux, I always bring up that Linux impacts 100% of internet users because of its presence running web applications, and it impacts however many people who use Android or other Linux devices (embedded/IoT). Automotive is even a huge sector these days.

pjmlp 6y ago
Depends on how one pats their back and the actual reality. Yes, Android runs on Linux, yet that is 100% meaningless for app developers targeting Android. Web developers don't care about what OS the browser is running on. Native Android developers have a Java Framework and Kotlin libraries to work with, which are completely unrelated to Linux. However they also have the NDK, one would say. Yes, indeed. So what are the public APIs? https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis And recent versions will kill apps that try to be clever and access private APIs, https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2016/06/android-changes-for-ndk-developers.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2016/06/android-ch... https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/07/seccomp-filter-in-android-o.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/07/seccomp-fi... As for automotive, while Automotive Grade Linux is getting some love, it is still not an option for real time requirements.
- namibj 6y ago
  RT_PREEMPT is very much capable of real-time applications. Outside of control loops faster than a couple kHz, it's even suitable for hard real-time applications. But those issues aren't fixed with Linux, but rather with CPUs design for hard real-time usage.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Industry seems to think otherwise. That still isn't a match for something like INTEGRITY OS, vxWorks, QNX when human lives are at risk. Or why despite using an heavily modified Linux kernel as basis for Azure Sphere, Microsoft rather advocates Azure RTOS for real time tasks. https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/internet-of-things/combining-azure-sphere-iot-security-with-azure-rtos-real-time/ba-p/1992869 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/internet-of-things/co... Or why the Linux Foundation, ironically pushes Zephyr for such purposes, completely unrelated to Linux source code. https://www.zephyrproject.org/ https://www.zephyrproject.org/
    - namibj 6y ago
      If Linux with PREEMPT_RT is unsuitable, all the modern x86 CPUs with system management mode interrupts are even worse. Because those are the worst and primary cause for that Linux being insufficient for control loops in the 10's of kHz.

by riffic 6y ago

pjmlp 6y ago

Depends on how one pats their back and the actual reality. Yes, Android runs on Linux, yet that is 100% meaningless for app developers targeting Android. Web developers don't care about what OS the browser is running on. Native Android developers have a Java Framework and Kotlin libraries to work with, which are completely unrelated to Linux. However they also have the NDK, one would say. Yes, indeed. So what are the public APIs? https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis And recent versions will kill apps that try to be clever and access private APIs, https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2016/06/android-changes-for-ndk-developers.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2016/06/android-ch... https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/07/seccomp-filter-in-android-o.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/07/seccomp-fi... As for automotive, while Automotive Grade Linux is getting some love, it is still not an option for real time requirements.

namibj 6y ago
RT_PREEMPT is very much capable of real-time applications. Outside of control loops faster than a couple kHz, it's even suitable for hard real-time applications. But those issues aren't fixed with Linux, but rather with CPUs design for hard real-time usage.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Industry seems to think otherwise. That still isn't a match for something like INTEGRITY OS, vxWorks, QNX when human lives are at risk. Or why despite using an heavily modified Linux kernel as basis for Azure Sphere, Microsoft rather advocates Azure RTOS for real time tasks. https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/internet-of-things/combining-azure-sphere-iot-security-with-azure-rtos-real-time/ba-p/1992869 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/internet-of-things/co... Or why the Linux Foundation, ironically pushes Zephyr for such purposes, completely unrelated to Linux source code. https://www.zephyrproject.org/ https://www.zephyrproject.org/
  - namibj 6y ago
    If Linux with PREEMPT_RT is unsuitable, all the modern x86 CPUs with system management mode interrupts are even worse. Because those are the worst and primary cause for that Linux being insufficient for control loops in the 10's of kHz.