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So you'd be fine with platforms purging anything critical of them? I guess in theory I wouldn't have an issue with that, but in practice a lot most of the time

So you'd be fine with platforms purging anything critical of them? I guess in theory I wouldn't have an issue with that, but in practice a lot most of the time there isn't really an alternative.

tshaddox 6y ago
Note that someone approving of one particular action by AWS does not imply that person approves of all actual or hypothetical actions that AWS might take. That’s absurd.
- ImprobableTruth 6y ago
  Except that's not at all what I said. I actually chose that example because I think the vast majority of people wouldn't approve it. They're arguing that this action is fine because they own the platform, so they can kick off whoever they want to. Do they accept that this also includes justifying kicking off people generally thought of as good?
  - tshaddox 6y ago
    You’re repeating the same absurdity I outlined. There’s a big difference between saying “that company is free to make that decision” and “I approve of that decision by that company.” Approving of one decision does not imply being bound to approve of all future decisions of that company.
    - ImprobableTruth 6y ago
      No, you just seem to think for some reason that "justifying kicking off people generally thought of as good" means approving of this action. They're not saying that kicking off people critical of them is good (i.e. something they personally approve of), but they're saying that it's reasonable.
      - Talanes 6y ago
        So you're just splitting hairs over the difference between "approve" and "find reasonable" until someone gives up and agrees with you?
        ImprobableTruth 6y ago
        I can't tell if you're trolling. They literally even themselves responded saying that while they wouldn't approve, they think it's something the company should be allowed to do. If you can't understand the difference, that's on you.
        Talanes 6y ago
        And I can't tell if you're trolling, for the exact same reasons you gave. They gave a reply that should satisfy your question, and you drilled down again because it didn't use your exact words.
        ImprobableTruth 6y ago
        Do you not understand how comment threads works? I didn't drill down on the original person (because while I disagree with them, they're willing to accept the logical conclusions of their justification), but on someone who insisted that my statement was absurd, even after I repeatedly tried clarifying it. What a waste of time.
        Talanes 6y ago
        I really had to go and dig to figure out what you were even talking about here. The "original person" was a separate sibling to this thread. Do you know how threads work? Because that was not part of this conversation. I am not going to read everything you ever type in order to have the context to understand you.
elicash 6y ago
There are legitimate business concerns: 1. What if it turns out that Facebook Groups were utilized in the effort by some in the mob to capture members of Congress in the Capitol and hang the Vice President, and that some of this was explicit ahead of time? This isn't theoretical -- keep in mind that the group planning to kidnap Gov. Whitmer organized on Facebook. Did Facebook play a role in promoting people to join that group? This creates not just PR problems, but also hiring problems. Who wants to write the algorithm that recommended a hate group and play a role in radicalizing people to violence? 2. A key moment from the Congressional hearings into tech companies was when Jack Dorsey, asked if the cure for bad speech is more speech, replied: "All of our policies are focused on encouraging more speech. What we saw and what the market told us was that people would not put up with abuse, harassment, and misleading information that would cause offline harm, and they would leave our service because of it." It's hard to fault these companies for wanting growth, and kicking people out can actually encourage that growth! 3. Young people are often the most profitable audiences. And many of the key creators for those audiences are also young. It's a serious problem for YouTube if their brand becomes Rudy Giuliani instead of [whatever makeup vlogger is popular right now]. This is similar to point (2), but slightly different. Even a smaller audience can be more profitable. To the "no alternative" point, I'm sympathetic to anti-monopoly efforts. Mostly for my own left-wing reasons: https://democracyjournal.org/arguments/imagining-a-democratic-amazon/ https://democracyjournal.org/arguments/imagining-a-democrati... But also, these efforts should be broader than just the technology companies: http://concentrationcrisis.openmarketsinstitute.org http://concentrationcrisis.openmarketsinstitute.org That said, even if you took these actions, it'd be hard for any company that wasn't taking moderation seriously among people planning violent overthrows of government. (Which I think is a good thing. Companies should care if armed insurrections are openly being plotted on the merits, not just for business reasons.)
- ImprobableTruth 6y ago
  I don't doubt that these companies are acting in their own best interest, if I was in their position I probably would have done the same (well, actually I probably would have done it a whole lot earlier), but that doesn't mean that it's great that corporations have this power. Hell, the fact that these companies are likely actually just doing all this because it's better for their bottom line makes me actually _less_ trusting of them. Hate speech is definitely an issue, but I want the government, who are democratically elected and (should) serve the people, to take care of it. Anti-monopoly efforts are nice, but the required scale of them seems incredibly unrealistic for anything that isn't far off into the future. Especially because it seems likely that for internet companies other countries would simply step in (unless you put up some china like internet firewall...).
notatoad 6y ago
> So you'd be fine with platforms purging anything critical of them? That is a completely absurd false equivalence. The decision to host content that could get their entire company shut down by the US government is not anything close to the same as the decision to host content that is critical of their company. But yes, if they wanted to make that decision, it would be completely within their rights. It would be a dumb decision, as it would turn away a huge number of their customers, but it would be within their rights. (Comparatively, the decision to turn away violent hate speech will deter very few of their customers on a global scale)
- ImprobableTruth 6y ago
  >That is a completely absurd false equivalence. Except it's not an equivalence at all. I'm simply saying (and evidently correctly at that), that your justification would also apply to this other situation. > It would be a dumb decision, as it would turn away a huge number of their customers, but it would be within their rights. Well, that's where I totally disagree. The vast, vast majority of customers wouldn't be in violation of it, so they have nothing to gain from switching and morality is at best an afterthought.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

So you'd be fine with platforms purging anything critical of them? I guess in theory I wouldn't have an issue with that, but in practice a lot most of the time there isn't really an alternative.

tshaddox 6y ago

Note that someone approving of one particular action by AWS does not imply that person approves of all actual or hypothetical actions that AWS might take. That’s absurd.

ImprobableTruth 6y ago
Except that's not at all what I said. I actually chose that example because I think the vast majority of people wouldn't approve it. They're arguing that this action is fine because they own the platform, so they can kick off whoever they want to. Do they accept that this also includes justifying kicking off people generally thought of as good?
- tshaddox 6y ago
  You’re repeating the same absurdity I outlined. There’s a big difference between saying “that company is free to make that decision” and “I approve of that decision by that company.” Approving of one decision does not imply being bound to approve of all future decisions of that company.
  - ImprobableTruth 6y ago
    No, you just seem to think for some reason that "justifying kicking off people generally thought of as good" means approving of this action. They're not saying that kicking off people critical of them is good (i.e. something they personally approve of), but they're saying that it's reasonable.
    - Talanes 6y ago
      So you're just splitting hairs over the difference between "approve" and "find reasonable" until someone gives up and agrees with you?
      - ImprobableTruth 6y ago
        I can't tell if you're trolling. They literally even themselves responded saying that while they wouldn't approve, they think it's something the company should be allowed to do. If you can't understand the difference, that's on you.
        Talanes 6y ago
        And I can't tell if you're trolling, for the exact same reasons you gave. They gave a reply that should satisfy your question, and you drilled down again because it didn't use your exact words.
        ImprobableTruth 6y ago
        Do you not understand how comment threads works? I didn't drill down on the original person (because while I disagree with them, they're willing to accept the logical conclusions of their justification), but on someone who insisted that my statement was absurd, even after I repeatedly tried clarifying it. What a waste of time.
        Talanes 6y ago
        I really had to go and dig to figure out what you were even talking about here. The "original person" was a separate sibling to this thread. Do you know how threads work? Because that was not part of this conversation. I am not going to read everything you ever type in order to have the context to understand you.

elicash 6y ago

There are legitimate business concerns: 1. What if it turns out that Facebook Groups were utilized in the effort by some in the mob to capture members of Congress in the Capitol and hang the Vice President, and that some of this was explicit ahead of time? This isn't theoretical -- keep in mind that the group planning to kidnap Gov. Whitmer organized on Facebook. Did Facebook play a role in promoting people to join that group? This creates not just PR problems, but also hiring problems. Who wants to write the algorithm that recommended a hate group and play a role in radicalizing people to violence? 2. A key moment from the Congressional hearings into tech companies was when Jack Dorsey, asked if the cure for bad speech is more speech, replied: "All of our policies are focused on encouraging more speech. What we saw and what the market told us was that people would not put up with abuse, harassment, and misleading information that would cause offline harm, and they would leave our service because of it." It's hard to fault these companies for wanting growth, and kicking people out can actually encourage that growth! 3. Young people are often the most profitable audiences. And many of the key creators for those audiences are also young. It's a serious problem for YouTube if their brand becomes Rudy Giuliani instead of [whatever makeup vlogger is popular right now]. This is similar to point (2), but slightly different. Even a smaller audience can be more profitable. To the "no alternative" point, I'm sympathetic to anti-monopoly efforts. Mostly for my own left-wing reasons: https://democracyjournal.org/arguments/imagining-a-democratic-amazon/ https://democracyjournal.org/arguments/imagining-a-democrati... But also, these efforts should be broader than just the technology companies: http://concentrationcrisis.openmarketsinstitute.org http://concentrationcrisis.openmarketsinstitute.org That said, even if you took these actions, it'd be hard for any company that wasn't taking moderation seriously among people planning violent overthrows of government. (Which I think is a good thing. Companies should care if armed insurrections are openly being plotted on the merits, not just for business reasons.)

ImprobableTruth 6y ago
I don't doubt that these companies are acting in their own best interest, if I was in their position I probably would have done the same (well, actually I probably would have done it a whole lot earlier), but that doesn't mean that it's great that corporations have this power. Hell, the fact that these companies are likely actually just doing all this because it's better for their bottom line makes me actually _less_ trusting of them. Hate speech is definitely an issue, but I want the government, who are democratically elected and (should) serve the people, to take care of it. Anti-monopoly efforts are nice, but the required scale of them seems incredibly unrealistic for anything that isn't far off into the future. Especially because it seems likely that for internet companies other countries would simply step in (unless you put up some china like internet firewall...).

notatoad 6y ago

> So you'd be fine with platforms purging anything critical of them? That is a completely absurd false equivalence. The decision to host content that could get their entire company shut down by the US government is not anything close to the same as the decision to host content that is critical of their company. But yes, if they wanted to make that decision, it would be completely within their rights. It would be a dumb decision, as it would turn away a huge number of their customers, but it would be within their rights. (Comparatively, the decision to turn away violent hate speech will deter very few of their customers on a global scale)

ImprobableTruth 6y ago
>That is a completely absurd false equivalence. Except it's not an equivalence at all. I'm simply saying (and evidently correctly at that), that your justification would also apply to this other situation. > It would be a dumb decision, as it would turn away a huge number of their customers, but it would be within their rights. Well, that's where I totally disagree. The vast, vast majority of customers wouldn't be in violation of it, so they have nothing to gain from switching and morality is at best an afterthought.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]