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This is good. Taiwan, like any place, has the right to self determination. Sigh, it's just such a pity the clown shoes shit show of US politics this week knock

This is good. Taiwan, like any place, has the right to self determination. Sigh, it's just such a pity the clown shoes shit show of US politics this week knocked the story of 55 democracy activists in Hong Kong being rounded up.

throwitaway1235 6y ago
You mean the state crackdown on normal Trump democracy activists at the capital? See, this as a Trump voter is why I'm so much more supportive of China than Hong Kong or Taiwan.
bagacrap 6y ago
Every place has the right to self determination, but secessionists tend to be treated as criminals. When the Southern states left the union, the world's oldest democracy went to war to prevent it. So it's a bit hypocritical of the US govt imo.
- brobinson 6y ago
  Right, it's about time the secessionists who left the ROC in 1949 get treated appropriately.
- perennate 6y ago
  > Every place has the right to self determination, but secessionists tend to be treated as criminals. The HK democracy activists are protesting in support of self determination. Those arrested are not "secessionists", and as far as I know, Hong Kong has not left the PRC, so your comparison doesn't really make any sense.
  - nsajko 6y ago
    I don't think Bagacrap was discussing Hong Kong at all, but anyway your argument doesn't make much sense, because if someone is "protesting in support of self determination", then they almost surely are really asking for secession.
    - perennate 6y ago
      Parent comment discussed "democracy activists in Hong Kong being rounded up" -- Bagacrap was of course misleadingly labeling those activists as "secessionists", unless you think Bagacrap was referring to the Taiwanese people even though Taiwan is an independent country and has no need for secession beyond a legal formality. On whether these activists are secessionists: their demands focus on advancing democratic elections in Hong Kong while continuing under the "one country two systems" framework, the claim that they are asking for secession is incorrect given that the vast majority of the activists do not want Hong Kong to secede from China. Edit: see https://www.scmp.com/yp/discover/news/hong-kong/article/3065950/hong-kong-protests-what-are-five-demands-what-do https://www.scmp.com/yp/discover/news/hong-kong/article/3065... which is from a newspaper in China (so even if it is biased, it would be biased towards pro-CCP views). As you can see, these activists want self-determination for Hong Kong, but do not want Hong Kong to leave or secede from China.
- nsajko 6y ago
  This is a nitpick irrelevant to your point, but still: "the world's oldest democracy" is a meaningless title because who it belongs to depends on the definition of "democracy". I'm sure there's at least half a dozen different places where it is customary to claim the title. See here for data points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy I'd say the right way to define "democracy" is not as a system of governance; but rather as a worldview, as an ideology and as an effort.
- strogonoff 6y ago
  Taiwan doesn’t want to secede, rather their claim is that China is unlawfully occupied.
  - nsajko 6y ago
    That was the ROC government's position at one point (I think it isn't anymore since 1991), but the situation with the popular opinions is considerably more complicated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan#Position_of_the_Republic_of_China_(ROC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan#Pos...
    - strogonoff 6y ago
      Fair point, I stand corrected.
strogonoff 6y ago
> US politics this week knocked the story of 55 democracy activists in Hong Kong being rounded up Among arrested is at least one US citizen (purely US, no dual citizenship with HK). I suspect there will be more fallout from this.
perennate 6y ago
Not to mention China's continued campaign of genocide against the Uighur people in Xinjiang. (And yes, when the CCP employs mass sterilization to prevent Uighurs from having children and interns millions in concentration camps without due process, it is genocide). Amazing that the world can basically ignore an ongoing modern-day Holocaust. If the US, Europe, and their allies purport to believe in universal human rights, they must put economic pressure on the PRC until the CCP ends these horrific actions.

throwitaway1235 6y ago

You mean the state crackdown on normal Trump democracy activists at the capital? See, this as a Trump voter is why I'm so much more supportive of China than Hong Kong or Taiwan.

bagacrap 6y ago

Every place has the right to self determination, but secessionists tend to be treated as criminals. When the Southern states left the union, the world's oldest democracy went to war to prevent it. So it's a bit hypocritical of the US govt imo.

brobinson 6y ago
Right, it's about time the secessionists who left the ROC in 1949 get treated appropriately.
perennate 6y ago
> Every place has the right to self determination, but secessionists tend to be treated as criminals. The HK democracy activists are protesting in support of self determination. Those arrested are not "secessionists", and as far as I know, Hong Kong has not left the PRC, so your comparison doesn't really make any sense.
- nsajko 6y ago
  I don't think Bagacrap was discussing Hong Kong at all, but anyway your argument doesn't make much sense, because if someone is "protesting in support of self determination", then they almost surely are really asking for secession.
  - perennate 6y ago
    Parent comment discussed "democracy activists in Hong Kong being rounded up" -- Bagacrap was of course misleadingly labeling those activists as "secessionists", unless you think Bagacrap was referring to the Taiwanese people even though Taiwan is an independent country and has no need for secession beyond a legal formality. On whether these activists are secessionists: their demands focus on advancing democratic elections in Hong Kong while continuing under the "one country two systems" framework, the claim that they are asking for secession is incorrect given that the vast majority of the activists do not want Hong Kong to secede from China. Edit: see https://www.scmp.com/yp/discover/news/hong-kong/article/3065950/hong-kong-protests-what-are-five-demands-what-do https://www.scmp.com/yp/discover/news/hong-kong/article/3065... which is from a newspaper in China (so even if it is biased, it would be biased towards pro-CCP views). As you can see, these activists want self-determination for Hong Kong, but do not want Hong Kong to leave or secede from China.
nsajko 6y ago
This is a nitpick irrelevant to your point, but still: "the world's oldest democracy" is a meaningless title because who it belongs to depends on the definition of "democracy". I'm sure there's at least half a dozen different places where it is customary to claim the title. See here for data points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy I'd say the right way to define "democracy" is not as a system of governance; but rather as a worldview, as an ideology and as an effort.
strogonoff 6y ago
Taiwan doesn’t want to secede, rather their claim is that China is unlawfully occupied.
- nsajko 6y ago
  That was the ROC government's position at one point (I think it isn't anymore since 1991), but the situation with the popular opinions is considerably more complicated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan#Position_of_the_Republic_of_China_(ROC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan#Pos...
  - strogonoff 6y ago
    Fair point, I stand corrected.

strogonoff 6y ago

> US politics this week knocked the story of 55 democracy activists in Hong Kong being rounded up Among arrested is at least one US citizen (purely US, no dual citizenship with HK). I suspect there will be more fallout from this.

perennate 6y ago

Not to mention China's continued campaign of genocide against the Uighur people in Xinjiang. (And yes, when the CCP employs mass sterilization to prevent Uighurs from having children and interns millions in concentration camps without due process, it is genocide). Amazing that the world can basically ignore an ongoing modern-day Holocaust. If the US, Europe, and their allies purport to believe in universal human rights, they must put economic pressure on the PRC until the CCP ends these horrific actions.