4 ms·

> We've got these two sides. Regardless of the merits, each side believes they know the truth, and that the other side is delusional. You're partially right. W

> We've got these two sides. Regardless of the merits, each side believes they know the truth, and that the other side is delusional. You're partially right. We have at least two sides. One side is CLEARLY delusional. Fueled by conspiracy theories and lies. We also have other sides, but the two sides that get the most attention are the only sides that matter. We have one side that is most definitely delusional, other sides maybe have members who might be, but one side is DOMINATED by delusion.

ansible 6y ago
And I do have a very strong opinion on all that. I just wanted to note that the "other side" that I'm not on, also believes basically the same thing with regards to my side.
- Renaud 6y ago
  Having an opinion you strongly believe in is not enough to make it true or right. The republicans have espoused a dangerous ideology that not just allows but welcomes factual untruths and a worrying disconnect from rational thought. There is a need for political parties of various philosophical bents to push and pull in different directions based on reasoned and informed decisions. Once you give up that core grounding you basically invite fanatism and I don’t see what possible positive outcome we can expect from this.
  - ansible 6y ago
    > Having an opinion you strongly believe in is not enough to make it true or right. Of course it isn't enough. That's why the media outlets in question will make up facts, or really slant things to appear to carry sufficient factual weight, and then the reasoning from there comes out to the desired conclusion. Not that there is usually much reasoning going on, it is mostly emotional arguments.
  - apta_ 6y ago
    > The republicans have espoused a dangerous ideology that not just allows but welcomes factual untruths and a worrying disconnect from rational thought. As if the dems didn't do the same? Let's be honest with ourselves, both extremes are very dangerous, and polarization is continuing. The far left will kill people if left to their accord: https://cdn.cnsnews.com/styles/article_big/s3/2021-01/Arthur%20Chu_1.jpg https://cdn.cnsnews.com/styles/article_big/s3/2021-01/Arthur...
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  There's no reason communications channels need to reenforce the deluded side's delusions. In fact, doing so is probably harmful.
throwaway201103 6y ago
By definition if you are delusional aren't you unaware of it?
- ipsocannibal 6y ago
  Only if you truely believe in the delusion. I don't think most of the fascist rioters truely believe there was any election fraud. I think they needed a public rationalization in order to radicalize tacit sympathizers. Being delusional is more social acceptable and less alarming than being an out and out violent racist insurrectionist.
  - throwaway201103 6y ago
    That's likely true for some. But many people do belive there was fraud. I think there were some very suspect things about the election. But I read Article II, and the 12th amendment. The congress is directed to count the Electoral votes submitted by the states. It's basically ceremonial, unless there is no majority in the Electoral vote. There is a process defined for that situation. There is not a word about challenging the votes as submitted. Mike Pence was absolutely right. There may or may not have been fraud in any of the states. But once they certify their Electors, that's it as far as I can see. I honestly don't know if there is a remedy even for clear fraud if the state goes ahead and certifies the results. In theory a state doesn't even need to hold a public vote. The legislature could just appoint the Electors. The founding fathers clearly wrote the constition to give the power of electing the president to the states. Allowing any level of the federal government to override that seems to be a conflict of interest.
  - loopz 6y ago
    Many of the hard-core sympathizers haven't heard anything else than all the allegations of fraud and stealing. This works when the psychopath in chief commit these crimes himself, and then projects it to the next unsuspecting victim. Thus the feelings are real, but the real fraud is the criminal cult leaders. Since people believe feelings, or feel to validate thoughts, this works all too well!
  - neogodless 6y ago
InvaderFizz 6y ago
> One side is CLEARLY delusional. Fueled by conspiracy theories and lies. Which set of conspiracy theories? The crazy ones that Trump was a Russian asset and everything surrounding that nutbaggery for four years? How about the current nutbaggery from the other extreme that this election was stollen through voting machine manipulation, ballot stuffing, discarded Trump ballots by postal workers, etc. It's hard for me to get upset at either side when it all looks so insane.
- loopz 6y ago
  It's plain Trump admires Putin, and even fell in love with Kim Il-Sung. You can't box in that person as a normal human being, but have to see past the appearances what he truly aspires too. More and more people realize this now, but many of us have revealed this for many years already. Especially past victims will tell you horror-stories. What happened now was to be expected, and worse.
- ModernMech 6y ago
  We'll call it nutbaggery as soon as you explain why Trump's campaign manager was caught funneling internal campaign data to a Russian intel officer during the 2016 election [1], while they were busy hacking Trump's opponent's party, and sending spies to meet with Trump's son and son in law at Trump's house (meeting which they welcomed enthusiastically, they lied about, and did not report to the FBI) [2]. [1]: Senate Intelligence Committee report on Russian interference in the 2016 United States presidential election, Volume V. [2]: Report On The Investigation Into Russian Interference In The 2016 Presidential Election, Volume I. > The Senate Intelligence Committee assessed that Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort's "high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with the Russian intelligence services" was a "grave counterintelligence threat".[15] The foremost individual was Manafort's employee Konstantin Kilimnik, a Russian.[15] The committee identified Kilimnik as a "Russian intelligence officer"; describing that Manafort and Kilimnik had a "close and lasting relationship" even through the 2016 election.[18] Manafort repeatedly tried to "secretly share internal Campaign information with Kilimnik", including "sensitive internal polling data or Campaign strategy".[18] > The Senate Intelligence Committee introduced a new allegation regarding Kilimnik, that he "may have been connected" to the Russian military intelligence's hack and leak of Democratic Party material. However, the report's discussions on this topic are redacted.[19] Manafort's connection with the Russian hack and leak operation is "largely unknown", but possible, given "two pieces of information" the committee found; the details of such information were also redacted.[18] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_presidential_election#Findings_on_Paul_Manafort_and_Konstantin_Kilimnik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_... BTW, this report was released by Senate Republicans. As soon as this matter is cleared up, you can call it nutbaggery.
nightski 6y ago
I'm sorry but just because a small vocal and extreme part of the conservative party has chosen to buy into conspiracy theories does not mean the entire side has. I know many conservatives who have not gone down this path and hate what DJT has done to the party. Calling a huge portion of the country delusional with no basis or fact is precisely what is driving this division. Both sides have a lot more in common than you might imagine. Far more than what they disagree on.
- loopz 6y ago
  It would help if compromises would be made in order to further progression of society. Politically, you have to root out the circus part of the current agenda, meant as diversion and confusion tactics.
- ModernMech 6y ago
  Yes! Democrats and Republicans agree on more than they think. At least those in the middle. We've fallen into this trap of thinking we're totally divided when we argue on the margins about taxes and healthcare (and don't get me wrong, there are some pretty big divisions there). But today we're not really arguing over the margins; the question before us today is "should we live in a democracy where the people decide the outcome of elections?" 90% of Democrats and Republicans will agree that yes! We should! Let's secure our democracy, then we can go back to arguing over the tax rate.
mam2 6y ago
Its delusion only if you think truth matters. For them, "group strength" and tribalism is more important, so their behaviour is not is not delusional within that paradigm. Thats what no one understands

ansible 6y ago

And I do have a very strong opinion on all that. I just wanted to note that the "other side" that I'm not on, also believes basically the same thing with regards to my side.

Renaud 6y ago
Having an opinion you strongly believe in is not enough to make it true or right. The republicans have espoused a dangerous ideology that not just allows but welcomes factual untruths and a worrying disconnect from rational thought. There is a need for political parties of various philosophical bents to push and pull in different directions based on reasoned and informed decisions. Once you give up that core grounding you basically invite fanatism and I don’t see what possible positive outcome we can expect from this.
- ansible 6y ago
  > Having an opinion you strongly believe in is not enough to make it true or right. Of course it isn't enough. That's why the media outlets in question will make up facts, or really slant things to appear to carry sufficient factual weight, and then the reasoning from there comes out to the desired conclusion. Not that there is usually much reasoning going on, it is mostly emotional arguments.
- apta_ 6y ago
  > The republicans have espoused a dangerous ideology that not just allows but welcomes factual untruths and a worrying disconnect from rational thought. As if the dems didn't do the same? Let's be honest with ourselves, both extremes are very dangerous, and polarization is continuing. The far left will kill people if left to their accord: https://cdn.cnsnews.com/styles/article_big/s3/2021-01/Arthur%20Chu_1.jpg https://cdn.cnsnews.com/styles/article_big/s3/2021-01/Arthur...
shadowgovt 6y ago
There's no reason communications channels need to reenforce the deluded side's delusions. In fact, doing so is probably harmful.

throwaway201103 6y ago

By definition if you are delusional aren't you unaware of it?

ipsocannibal 6y ago
Only if you truely believe in the delusion. I don't think most of the fascist rioters truely believe there was any election fraud. I think they needed a public rationalization in order to radicalize tacit sympathizers. Being delusional is more social acceptable and less alarming than being an out and out violent racist insurrectionist.
- throwaway201103 6y ago
  That's likely true for some. But many people do belive there was fraud. I think there were some very suspect things about the election. But I read Article II, and the 12th amendment. The congress is directed to count the Electoral votes submitted by the states. It's basically ceremonial, unless there is no majority in the Electoral vote. There is a process defined for that situation. There is not a word about challenging the votes as submitted. Mike Pence was absolutely right. There may or may not have been fraud in any of the states. But once they certify their Electors, that's it as far as I can see. I honestly don't know if there is a remedy even for clear fraud if the state goes ahead and certifies the results. In theory a state doesn't even need to hold a public vote. The legislature could just appoint the Electors. The founding fathers clearly wrote the constition to give the power of electing the president to the states. Allowing any level of the federal government to override that seems to be a conflict of interest.
- loopz 6y ago
  Many of the hard-core sympathizers haven't heard anything else than all the allegations of fraud and stealing. This works when the psychopath in chief commit these crimes himself, and then projects it to the next unsuspecting victim. Thus the feelings are real, but the real fraud is the criminal cult leaders. Since people believe feelings, or feel to validate thoughts, this works all too well!
- neogodless 6y ago

InvaderFizz 6y ago

> One side is CLEARLY delusional. Fueled by conspiracy theories and lies. Which set of conspiracy theories? The crazy ones that Trump was a Russian asset and everything surrounding that nutbaggery for four years? How about the current nutbaggery from the other extreme that this election was stollen through voting machine manipulation, ballot stuffing, discarded Trump ballots by postal workers, etc. It's hard for me to get upset at either side when it all looks so insane.

loopz 6y ago
It's plain Trump admires Putin, and even fell in love with Kim Il-Sung. You can't box in that person as a normal human being, but have to see past the appearances what he truly aspires too. More and more people realize this now, but many of us have revealed this for many years already. Especially past victims will tell you horror-stories. What happened now was to be expected, and worse.
ModernMech 6y ago
We'll call it nutbaggery as soon as you explain why Trump's campaign manager was caught funneling internal campaign data to a Russian intel officer during the 2016 election [1], while they were busy hacking Trump's opponent's party, and sending spies to meet with Trump's son and son in law at Trump's house (meeting which they welcomed enthusiastically, they lied about, and did not report to the FBI) [2]. [1]: Senate Intelligence Committee report on Russian interference in the 2016 United States presidential election, Volume V. [2]: Report On The Investigation Into Russian Interference In The 2016 Presidential Election, Volume I. > The Senate Intelligence Committee assessed that Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort's "high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with the Russian intelligence services" was a "grave counterintelligence threat".[15] The foremost individual was Manafort's employee Konstantin Kilimnik, a Russian.[15] The committee identified Kilimnik as a "Russian intelligence officer"; describing that Manafort and Kilimnik had a "close and lasting relationship" even through the 2016 election.[18] Manafort repeatedly tried to "secretly share internal Campaign information with Kilimnik", including "sensitive internal polling data or Campaign strategy".[18] > The Senate Intelligence Committee introduced a new allegation regarding Kilimnik, that he "may have been connected" to the Russian military intelligence's hack and leak of Democratic Party material. However, the report's discussions on this topic are redacted.[19] Manafort's connection with the Russian hack and leak operation is "largely unknown", but possible, given "two pieces of information" the committee found; the details of such information were also redacted.[18] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_presidential_election#Findings_on_Paul_Manafort_and_Konstantin_Kilimnik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_... BTW, this report was released by Senate Republicans. As soon as this matter is cleared up, you can call it nutbaggery.

nightski 6y ago

I'm sorry but just because a small vocal and extreme part of the conservative party has chosen to buy into conspiracy theories does not mean the entire side has. I know many conservatives who have not gone down this path and hate what DJT has done to the party. Calling a huge portion of the country delusional with no basis or fact is precisely what is driving this division. Both sides have a lot more in common than you might imagine. Far more than what they disagree on.

loopz 6y ago
It would help if compromises would be made in order to further progression of society. Politically, you have to root out the circus part of the current agenda, meant as diversion and confusion tactics.
ModernMech 6y ago
Yes! Democrats and Republicans agree on more than they think. At least those in the middle. We've fallen into this trap of thinking we're totally divided when we argue on the margins about taxes and healthcare (and don't get me wrong, there are some pretty big divisions there). But today we're not really arguing over the margins; the question before us today is "should we live in a democracy where the people decide the outcome of elections?" 90% of Democrats and Republicans will agree that yes! We should! Let's secure our democracy, then we can go back to arguing over the tax rate.

mam2 6y ago

Its delusion only if you think truth matters. For them, "group strength" and tribalism is more important, so their behaviour is not is not delusional within that paradigm. Thats what no one understands