11 ms·

The problem isn't that we don't have the tools to fight these terrorists. The problem is that many of our politicians and police are siding with the terrorists,

The problem isn't that we don't have the tools to fight these terrorists. The problem is that many of our politicians and police are siding with the terrorists, or at the very least sympathetic to their cause. This isn't a new phenomenon either. This has been documented [0] time and time again [1]. [0] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-i... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/27/white-supremacists-militias-infiltrate-us-police-report https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/27/white-suprem...

8ytecoder 6y ago
I don’t think even those politicians and officers wanted the Capitol breached; what happened was they didn’t think there people would do it. It’s a huge bias. If the same was discussed by anyone outside that category of people it would have been met with the appropriate preparation and mitigation measures.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  This really speaks to the problem, though. They've proven to be more than happy to bait the mob when they think they can use it to consolidate their own power. The GOP has been doing a large scale equivalent of swinging nunchucks around in public. The problem isn't that sometimes it swings around the wrong way and whacks someone they didn't intend to whack. Well, no, it is, of course that's a problem. But the more fundamental problem is that they're recklessly swinging an unpredictable weapon in public in an effort to be intimidating in the first place. And the problem is that people who didn't feel personally threatened by this behavior just sat there and came up with sorry excuses to try and rationalize it. This is deeply antisocial comportment that should have no place in the top echelons of civil society.
  - throwaway201103 6y ago
    > They've proven to be more than happy to bait the mob when they think they can use it to consolidate their own power. But both sides are doing it. Kamala Harris, speaking on protests and rioting after the death of George Floyd: "They’re not going to stop. They’re not going to stop. This is a movement, I’m telling you. They’re not gonna stop. And everyone beware because they’re not gonna stop. They’re not gonna stop before Election Day and they’re not going to stop after Election Day. And everyone should take note of that. They’re not gonna let up and they should not."
    - mumblemumble 6y ago
      Quote mining is such a magical thing. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-kamala-harris-late-show-rio/fact-check-kamala-harris-said-she-supports-protests-not-riots-in-late-show-clip-idUSKBN27E34P https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-kamala-harris-l...
    - MereInterest 6y ago
      I see a pretty big difference between protests against police violence and protests against an election result.
      - acdha 6y ago
        There’s also a huge difference between people standing in the street shouting that they don’t like you and breaking down the doors to a restricted federal building after saying they were going to kill you and/or shut down a civic proceeding.
      - throwaway201103 6y ago
        There police protests included riots, arson, looting, and murders. Harris didn't condemn this until months later when specifically pressed on the point. Just as Trump has always condemned violence when specifically asked.
      - odessacubbage 6y ago
        yes, far more people died during the former. the ethical double standard you are creating exists in your mind and in your mind only. when people see violence excused and ignored for months on end, it becomes legitimized as a tactic in their playbook as well. this is the current sickness in our discourse that we have to reckon with and trying to play 'most righteous cause' is the furthest thing from a solution.
        throw0101a 6y ago
        Supposedly more cops died in one day of (presumably Thin Blue Line supporting) riots at the US Capital than did many months of the so-called "anti-cop" demonstrations. Perhaps if the police cleared out the MAGA folks as enthusiastically as they did the peaceful demonstrators for Trump's church photo-op, then a lot of this could be avoided. And the goal of the BLM demonstration was not violence, whereas that was the goal of at least some (if not many) of the MAGA folks. Quite a few folks walking around with zip ties and more than one noose as well. Going back to July 27, 2020, Trump tweeted: > Anarchists, Agitators or Protestors who vandalize or damage our Federal Courthouse in Portland, or any Federal Buildings in any of our Cities or States, will be prosecuted under our recently re-enacted Statues & Monuments Act. MINIMUM TEN YEARS IN PRISON. Don’t do it! @DHSgov * https://www.cbs17.com/news/national-news/trump-tweet-threatening-prison-time-for-those-who-protest-at-federal-buildings-resurfaces-amid-capitol-hill-chaos/ https://www.cbs17.com/news/national-news/trump-tweet-threate... * https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1287877621380837378 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/12878776213808373...
- rsynnott 6y ago
  I think that's possibly an over-charitable view, but if you accept it it still paints them as negligent and incompetent. "Some terrorists have explicitly said they will do this thing, in public, but, eh, they probably won't, so why worry about it" is a ridiculous take for someone in their position.
ABeeSea 6y ago
There needs to be a thorough review of the social media and tattoos of all law enforcement in the US. Anyone with a hint of ties to the white supremacist militias or movements needs to be immediately fired. I’m hoping the Biden DoJ will issue a lot of consent decrees and thoroughly investigate every police agency in the country.
- stogxx 6y ago
  A far left witch hunt. What could go weong?
  - ghthor 6y ago
    Time for the gulags
  - imbnwa 6y ago
    The FBI and DOJ already know the extent of Right Extremist sympathy in local law enforcement[0] [0]https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidd...
  - ABeeSea 6y ago
    Is the right-wing not against white supremacy?
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Is the right-wing not against white supremacy? Appeal to white supremacists to attempt to build a winning coalition has been a core GOP strategy for more than a half century; that part of the right-wing that isn't itself white supremacist relies on support from white supremacists to advance their agenda. (To be fair, that was true of the Democratic Party instead of the GOP from the founding until the 1960s, but for a couple of breaches between the extreme racists and the rest of the party that were usually healed in short order. White supremacy has always been a powerful enough force in America that it's always been a significant influence on at least one major party.)
beezle 6y ago
The fact that the DoD time line of events shows it took Army officials in charge of DC National Guard 90 minutes to approve deployment after DC mayoral request (while they watch it all in realtime on TV) certainly lends credence to the sympathy angle. ref: https://media.defense.gov/2021/Jan/08/2002562063/-1/-1/1/PLANNING-AND-EXECUTION-TIMELINE-FOR-THE-NATIONAL-GUARDS-INVOLVEMENT-IN-THE-JANUARY-6-2021-FIRST-AMENDMENT-PROTESTS-IN-WASHINGTON-DC.pdf https://media.defense.gov/2021/Jan/08/2002562063/-1/-1/1/PLA...
- dgeiser13 6y ago
  That is an amazing timeline.
- mcv 6y ago
  Note how they call it the "first amendment protest", and not "the assault on the Capitol".
  - tjkoury 6y ago
    They changed it "to address the Violent Attack at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021". Check the link again.
    - mcv 6y ago
      The link doesn't work anymore.
- belorn 6y ago
  Who is the people in charge of keeping unauthorized people out of the capitol building. The police, or the army? Let say we have the worst case scenario where a bunch of criminals successfully enter the capital building and occupy it. Is the best response to send the army, or as many police units as needed to apprehend the criminals and put them in jail? By sending the army what we are saying is that there existed a creditable scenario that the people attacking could have taken control of the US government and ruled over the nation.
imbnwa 6y ago
Also the DOJ and FBI have known for a while many local police departments are ideologically comprimised towards Right Extremism and aren't really doing much[0] [0]https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidd...
ghufran_syed 6y ago
You mean politicians like the mayor of DC, a Democrat who refused offers of assistance from the military in the days before the riot? https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-01-07/dc-riots-capitol-police-reject-federal-help https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-01-07/dc-riots-c...
- zimpenfish 6y ago
  Can't read that due to adblock but this seems to be the same story - https://apnews.com/article/55972c6be7b819f46ec0ec55addd64b7 https://apnews.com/article/55972c6be7b819f46ec0ec55addd64b7 Which doesn't mention anything about Mayor Bowser refusing offers of assistance - only the Capitol Police. Indeed, it cites her asking for assistance on December 31st in preparation.
- xxpor 6y ago
  The capitol police aren't under the control of the DC mayor, they're part of the legislative branch.
m463 6y ago
I believe the appropriate tool to fight this is simple: verifiable voting I think literally anyone on this site could invent a more reliable and common-sense approach to voting. This is all just fallout from a fallible system that has little trust.
- willis936 6y ago
  I don’t buy the “voting isn’t trustworthy” narrative. I buy the “I claim voting isn’t trustworthy when my tribe loses an election” angle.
  - m463 6y ago
    It's not a narrative. Voting isn't trustworthy.
    - willis936 6y ago
      How is that not a narrative? It certainly is not a fact.
    - godelski 6y ago
      Do you have evidence to this? No one ever expects to have perfect trust in voting (or anything). There are 155 million votes that had to be counted. If we're talking about a few thousand errors, that doesn't change anything unless they are highly concentrated in specific areas. The question is if it is good enough the trust the results. But if you expect perfection that this is a game that can never be won. Never.
      - m463 6y ago
        search "defcon voting village"
        godelski 6y ago
        That's not an answer. I am well aware of defcon's voting village. I'm well aware of many of the issues with voting machines and actively advocate for better security (and voting methods). But I think you'd taking the results too far. You'd have to hack into hundreds or thousands of machines within a single state to change its votes. Worse, you have to do this in a way that looks plausible. You're talking about a major conspiracy that would have to take place. And if Russia is going to change votes why wouldn't China, Israel, or others? So they would have to all organize together so they don't undo one another's work. And that would have to happen without us (NSA, FBI, CIA) finding out. You're talking about a conspiracy that would be very difficult to pull off and require high amounts of organization. Hacking a computer is easy. Hacking a thousand computers in a room full of people that are worried about their computers being hacked? Different story.
bumbada 6y ago
The problem is that absolute power means people in power can become the terrorist. Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Polpot or Stalin took so much power that they became the terrorist themselves. They killed hundreds of millions of people. You could be raped of tortured at any time. It is not white supremacist. It is anyone with power. Right now in the US, the antifa movement is as violent or more violent than anyone else. Certainly the Guardian is not an unbiased source.

8ytecoder 6y ago

I don’t think even those politicians and officers wanted the Capitol breached; what happened was they didn’t think there people would do it. It’s a huge bias. If the same was discussed by anyone outside that category of people it would have been met with the appropriate preparation and mitigation measures.

mumblemumble 6y ago
This really speaks to the problem, though. They've proven to be more than happy to bait the mob when they think they can use it to consolidate their own power. The GOP has been doing a large scale equivalent of swinging nunchucks around in public. The problem isn't that sometimes it swings around the wrong way and whacks someone they didn't intend to whack. Well, no, it is, of course that's a problem. But the more fundamental problem is that they're recklessly swinging an unpredictable weapon in public in an effort to be intimidating in the first place. And the problem is that people who didn't feel personally threatened by this behavior just sat there and came up with sorry excuses to try and rationalize it. This is deeply antisocial comportment that should have no place in the top echelons of civil society.
- throwaway201103 6y ago
  > They've proven to be more than happy to bait the mob when they think they can use it to consolidate their own power. But both sides are doing it. Kamala Harris, speaking on protests and rioting after the death of George Floyd: "They’re not going to stop. They’re not going to stop. This is a movement, I’m telling you. They’re not gonna stop. And everyone beware because they’re not gonna stop. They’re not gonna stop before Election Day and they’re not going to stop after Election Day. And everyone should take note of that. They’re not gonna let up and they should not."
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    Quote mining is such a magical thing. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-kamala-harris-late-show-rio/fact-check-kamala-harris-said-she-supports-protests-not-riots-in-late-show-clip-idUSKBN27E34P https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-kamala-harris-l...
  - MereInterest 6y ago
    I see a pretty big difference between protests against police violence and protests against an election result.
    - acdha 6y ago
      There’s also a huge difference between people standing in the street shouting that they don’t like you and breaking down the doors to a restricted federal building after saying they were going to kill you and/or shut down a civic proceeding.
    - throwaway201103 6y ago
      There police protests included riots, arson, looting, and murders. Harris didn't condemn this until months later when specifically pressed on the point. Just as Trump has always condemned violence when specifically asked.
    - odessacubbage 6y ago
      yes, far more people died during the former. the ethical double standard you are creating exists in your mind and in your mind only. when people see violence excused and ignored for months on end, it becomes legitimized as a tactic in their playbook as well. this is the current sickness in our discourse that we have to reckon with and trying to play 'most righteous cause' is the furthest thing from a solution.
      - throw0101a 6y ago
        Supposedly more cops died in one day of (presumably Thin Blue Line supporting) riots at the US Capital than did many months of the so-called "anti-cop" demonstrations. Perhaps if the police cleared out the MAGA folks as enthusiastically as they did the peaceful demonstrators for Trump's church photo-op, then a lot of this could be avoided. And the goal of the BLM demonstration was not violence, whereas that was the goal of at least some (if not many) of the MAGA folks. Quite a few folks walking around with zip ties and more than one noose as well. Going back to July 27, 2020, Trump tweeted: > Anarchists, Agitators or Protestors who vandalize or damage our Federal Courthouse in Portland, or any Federal Buildings in any of our Cities or States, will be prosecuted under our recently re-enacted Statues & Monuments Act. MINIMUM TEN YEARS IN PRISON. Don’t do it! @DHSgov * https://www.cbs17.com/news/national-news/trump-tweet-threatening-prison-time-for-those-who-protest-at-federal-buildings-resurfaces-amid-capitol-hill-chaos/ https://www.cbs17.com/news/national-news/trump-tweet-threate... * https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1287877621380837378 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/12878776213808373...
rsynnott 6y ago
I think that's possibly an over-charitable view, but if you accept it it still paints them as negligent and incompetent. "Some terrorists have explicitly said they will do this thing, in public, but, eh, they probably won't, so why worry about it" is a ridiculous take for someone in their position.

ABeeSea 6y ago

There needs to be a thorough review of the social media and tattoos of all law enforcement in the US. Anyone with a hint of ties to the white supremacist militias or movements needs to be immediately fired. I’m hoping the Biden DoJ will issue a lot of consent decrees and thoroughly investigate every police agency in the country.

stogxx 6y ago
A far left witch hunt. What could go weong?
- ghthor 6y ago
  Time for the gulags
- imbnwa 6y ago
  The FBI and DOJ already know the extent of Right Extremist sympathy in local law enforcement[0] [0]https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidd...
- ABeeSea 6y ago
  Is the right-wing not against white supremacy?
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Is the right-wing not against white supremacy? Appeal to white supremacists to attempt to build a winning coalition has been a core GOP strategy for more than a half century; that part of the right-wing that isn't itself white supremacist relies on support from white supremacists to advance their agenda. (To be fair, that was true of the Democratic Party instead of the GOP from the founding until the 1960s, but for a couple of breaches between the extreme racists and the rest of the party that were usually healed in short order. White supremacy has always been a powerful enough force in America that it's always been a significant influence on at least one major party.)

beezle 6y ago

The fact that the DoD time line of events shows it took Army officials in charge of DC National Guard 90 minutes to approve deployment after DC mayoral request (while they watch it all in realtime on TV) certainly lends credence to the sympathy angle. ref: https://media.defense.gov/2021/Jan/08/2002562063/-1/-1/1/PLANNING-AND-EXECUTION-TIMELINE-FOR-THE-NATIONAL-GUARDS-INVOLVEMENT-IN-THE-JANUARY-6-2021-FIRST-AMENDMENT-PROTESTS-IN-WASHINGTON-DC.pdf https://media.defense.gov/2021/Jan/08/2002562063/-1/-1/1/PLA...

dgeiser13 6y ago
That is an amazing timeline.
mcv 6y ago
Note how they call it the "first amendment protest", and not "the assault on the Capitol".
- tjkoury 6y ago
  They changed it "to address the Violent Attack at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021". Check the link again.
  - mcv 6y ago
    The link doesn't work anymore.
belorn 6y ago
Who is the people in charge of keeping unauthorized people out of the capitol building. The police, or the army? Let say we have the worst case scenario where a bunch of criminals successfully enter the capital building and occupy it. Is the best response to send the army, or as many police units as needed to apprehend the criminals and put them in jail? By sending the army what we are saying is that there existed a creditable scenario that the people attacking could have taken control of the US government and ruled over the nation.

imbnwa 6y ago

Also the DOJ and FBI have known for a while many local police departments are ideologically comprimised towards Right Extremism and aren't really doing much[0] [0]https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidd...

ghufran_syed 6y ago

You mean politicians like the mayor of DC, a Democrat who refused offers of assistance from the military in the days before the riot? https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-01-07/dc-riots-capitol-police-reject-federal-help https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-01-07/dc-riots-c...

zimpenfish 6y ago
Can't read that due to adblock but this seems to be the same story - https://apnews.com/article/55972c6be7b819f46ec0ec55addd64b7 https://apnews.com/article/55972c6be7b819f46ec0ec55addd64b7 Which doesn't mention anything about Mayor Bowser refusing offers of assistance - only the Capitol Police. Indeed, it cites her asking for assistance on December 31st in preparation.
xxpor 6y ago
The capitol police aren't under the control of the DC mayor, they're part of the legislative branch.

m463 6y ago

I believe the appropriate tool to fight this is simple: verifiable voting I think literally anyone on this site could invent a more reliable and common-sense approach to voting. This is all just fallout from a fallible system that has little trust.

willis936 6y ago
I don’t buy the “voting isn’t trustworthy” narrative. I buy the “I claim voting isn’t trustworthy when my tribe loses an election” angle.
- m463 6y ago
  It's not a narrative. Voting isn't trustworthy.
  - willis936 6y ago
    How is that not a narrative? It certainly is not a fact.
  - godelski 6y ago
    Do you have evidence to this? No one ever expects to have perfect trust in voting (or anything). There are 155 million votes that had to be counted. If we're talking about a few thousand errors, that doesn't change anything unless they are highly concentrated in specific areas. The question is if it is good enough the trust the results. But if you expect perfection that this is a game that can never be won. Never.
    - m463 6y ago
      search "defcon voting village"
      - godelski 6y ago
        That's not an answer. I am well aware of defcon's voting village. I'm well aware of many of the issues with voting machines and actively advocate for better security (and voting methods). But I think you'd taking the results too far. You'd have to hack into hundreds or thousands of machines within a single state to change its votes. Worse, you have to do this in a way that looks plausible. You're talking about a major conspiracy that would have to take place. And if Russia is going to change votes why wouldn't China, Israel, or others? So they would have to all organize together so they don't undo one another's work. And that would have to happen without us (NSA, FBI, CIA) finding out. You're talking about a conspiracy that would be very difficult to pull off and require high amounts of organization. Hacking a computer is easy. Hacking a thousand computers in a room full of people that are worried about their computers being hacked? Different story.

bumbada 6y ago

The problem is that absolute power means people in power can become the terrorist. Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Polpot or Stalin took so much power that they became the terrorist themselves. They killed hundreds of millions of people. You could be raped of tortured at any time. It is not white supremacist. It is anyone with power. Right now in the US, the antifa movement is as violent or more violent than anyone else. Certainly the Guardian is not an unbiased source.