6 ms·

> The problem is that "defund" means remove all funding. So these people are playing word games. You have to that with slogans. They're low resolution, so the

by ardy42 6y ago

> The problem is that "defund" means remove all funding. So these people are playing word games. You have to that with slogans. They're low resolution, so there's an inevitable loss of fidelity. No one marches with a legislative proposal on a placard, and it would be unreasonable to do so.

travisoneill1 6y ago
"Reform the police" is a slogan and accurate.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-police-reform-a-fundamentally-flawed-idea/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-police-reform-a-fund...
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  It's not accurate, unfortunately. Reform is as ambiguous as defund. Do you mean totally eradicate and then reform a department? Or do you mean just telling them "do better"? Are you talking about re-forming the police or reforms for police?
- ardy42 6y ago
  > "Reform the police" is a slogan and accurate. IIRC, "defund the police" grew out of frustration with various police reform efforts that failed to address these problems [1]. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to take up the slogan of one of the things you're opposing. [1] For instance I watch a video of some police deescalation training (in Seattle, IIRC), where the rank-and-file were talking back and not taking it seriously, and the instructors were not very enthusiastic or in control. I can't imagine that reform effort did a lot of good.
pluto9 6y ago
That's a poor excuse. They're low resolution, but not so low resolution that you can chant a slogan and then claim you meant something else entirely. Why not "reform the police", or hell, even "disarm the police"?
- abathur 6y ago
  Do you think "disarm the police" would be going better than "defund the police"? (I suspect it would actually be quite a bit more incendiary.) Communication (even at length) is hard. We all bring different baggage to every attempt to speak and listen. It's probably ~impossible once you mix in uncharitable readers/listeners. I can't speak for the campaigners, but I suspect "reform the police" won't cut the mustard for them because it's the sort of thing the establishment says before it fails to deliver meaningful change. "Today I'm calling for the establishment of a bipartisan commission on police reform", and its short imperative slogan--"reform the police"--could be an inspiring message if people had the impression that is how the gears sound when they're spinning up to change something. But it's not very fair to insist people should be chanting a demand that seems to translate to "promise to look busy for a few months so that we'll go home and hope we don't notice when you don't solve the problem."
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  "Reform the police" has long been the tagline for ineffective measures. We've been trying to do it for decades; "defund the police" is in part a response to the reform argument. "Disarm the police" would receive the exact same pearl clutching responses.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  People talked about defunding education and the military for years. Both for and against. Everyone understood what it meant.
  - pluto9 6y ago
    They talked about reducing funding.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      They talked about defunding.[1][2] [1] https://www.alternet.org/2012/10/how-higher-education-us-was-destroyed-5-basic-steps/ https://www.alternet.org/2012/10/how-higher-education-us-was... [2] https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/03/10/defunding_defense_121854.html https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/03/10/defund...
sokoloff 6y ago
When you march with something that’s objectively false and materially misleading, you lose my good faith engagement. “Defund the police” is misleading in a way that “Trump Train” and “Ridin’ with Biden” are not. It’s not a real train and Biden isn’t with you, but people are not misled.
naveen99 6y ago
“Reduce police funding” ?
- ardy42 6y ago
  > “Reduce police funding”? Better in some ways, worse in others. It avoids the confusion with abolishment, but it looses the connotations of seriously changing the status quo. Because of that, it's less attention-grabbing.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    The truth is often less attention grabbing than falsehoods. It’s “one crazy trick” or “you’re not going to believe #7” but for matters that are actually important to discuss and debate in specifics.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > The truth is often less attention grabbing than falsehoods. Pretty much every slogan is a falsehood, if you want to quibble.

by ardy42 6y ago

travisoneill1 6y ago

"Reform the police" is a slogan and accurate.

ceejayoz 6y ago
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-police-reform-a-fundamentally-flawed-idea/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-police-reform-a-fund...
Pfhreak 6y ago
It's not accurate, unfortunately. Reform is as ambiguous as defund. Do you mean totally eradicate and then reform a department? Or do you mean just telling them "do better"? Are you talking about re-forming the police or reforms for police?
ardy42 6y ago
> "Reform the police" is a slogan and accurate. IIRC, "defund the police" grew out of frustration with various police reform efforts that failed to address these problems [1]. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to take up the slogan of one of the things you're opposing. [1] For instance I watch a video of some police deescalation training (in Seattle, IIRC), where the rank-and-file were talking back and not taking it seriously, and the instructors were not very enthusiastic or in control. I can't imagine that reform effort did a lot of good.

pluto9 6y ago

That's a poor excuse. They're low resolution, but not so low resolution that you can chant a slogan and then claim you meant something else entirely. Why not "reform the police", or hell, even "disarm the police"?

abathur 6y ago
Do you think "disarm the police" would be going better than "defund the police"? (I suspect it would actually be quite a bit more incendiary.) Communication (even at length) is hard. We all bring different baggage to every attempt to speak and listen. It's probably ~impossible once you mix in uncharitable readers/listeners. I can't speak for the campaigners, but I suspect "reform the police" won't cut the mustard for them because it's the sort of thing the establishment says before it fails to deliver meaningful change. "Today I'm calling for the establishment of a bipartisan commission on police reform", and its short imperative slogan--"reform the police"--could be an inspiring message if people had the impression that is how the gears sound when they're spinning up to change something. But it's not very fair to insist people should be chanting a demand that seems to translate to "promise to look busy for a few months so that we'll go home and hope we don't notice when you don't solve the problem."
ceejayoz 6y ago
"Reform the police" has long been the tagline for ineffective measures. We've been trying to do it for decades; "defund the police" is in part a response to the reform argument. "Disarm the police" would receive the exact same pearl clutching responses.
pseudalopex 6y ago
People talked about defunding education and the military for years. Both for and against. Everyone understood what it meant.
- pluto9 6y ago
  They talked about reducing funding.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    They talked about defunding.[1][2] [1] https://www.alternet.org/2012/10/how-higher-education-us-was-destroyed-5-basic-steps/ https://www.alternet.org/2012/10/how-higher-education-us-was... [2] https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/03/10/defunding_defense_121854.html https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/03/10/defund...

sokoloff 6y ago

When you march with something that’s objectively false and materially misleading, you lose my good faith engagement. “Defund the police” is misleading in a way that “Trump Train” and “Ridin’ with Biden” are not. It’s not a real train and Biden isn’t with you, but people are not misled.

naveen99 6y ago

“Reduce police funding” ?

ardy42 6y ago
> “Reduce police funding”? Better in some ways, worse in others. It avoids the confusion with abolishment, but it looses the connotations of seriously changing the status quo. Because of that, it's less attention-grabbing.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  The truth is often less attention grabbing than falsehoods. It’s “one crazy trick” or “you’re not going to believe #7” but for matters that are actually important to discuss and debate in specifics.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > The truth is often less attention grabbing than falsehoods. Pretty much every slogan is a falsehood, if you want to quibble.