5 ms·

>maybe we don’t need armed people to give tickets to drivers with a busted headlight There are endless videos of normal cops being executed by unhinged drivers

by daenz 6y ago

>maybe we don’t need armed people to give tickets to drivers with a busted headlight There are endless videos of normal cops being executed by unhinged drivers who were pulled over for things like "a busted headlight." You don't know who you're dealing with, how close to the edge some people are, or if they are dangerous felons, when you pull them over. If those situations were a very real possibility in your daily job, would you perform that job unarmed? I wouldn't. Maybe some very brave mental health professionals would, for a time, until some of them are killed as well, as indiscriminately as the police, which is inevitable. What then? Stop pulling people over altogether, because it's not worth risking anybody's life further? Just let people speed and drive drunk, or drive with an unsafe vehicle? When I get this far in discussions with people, it eventually comes down to "well dangerous people shouldn't have guns." It's a nice thought, naive in my opinion, but regardless, how do we deal with the reality of right now until those ideals manifest in reality? The reality is that dangerous people make regular traffic stops too dangerous for normal people to behave in any other way that to exercise extreme caution.

ceejayoz 6y ago
> There are endless videos of cops being executed by unhinged drivers who were pulled over for things like "a busted headlight." Frequently, this is because they suspect the cop will find they have a warrant or contraband and the stop will proceed past a ticket to arrest and felony charges. Separating the civil and criminal enforcement here makes these encounters safer; we can see this in countries where traffic cops aren't routinely armed.
- throwaway201103 6y ago
  So a traffic stop shouldn't involve a check for outstanding warrants?
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    There are a variety of different opinions on the matter. Don't check at all. Check, but report without pursuit. Some have issues with traffic stops entirely, given the racial biases involved in who to pull over. (Demonstrated most effectively in this study, where the disparity disappears when the sun goes down: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/inside-100-million-police-traffic-stops-new-evidence-racial-bias-n980556 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/inside-100-million-poli... / https://news.stanford.edu/2020/05/05/veil-darkness-reduces-racial-bias-traffic-stops/ https://news.stanford.edu/2020/05/05/veil-darkness-reduces-r...) There's also the fact that the scary "normal cops being executed by unhinged drivers" scenario is a vanishingly rare scenario. The rate of murders of police officers matches roughly the rate in the general population. https://www.newsweek.com/it-has-never-been-safer-be-cop-372025 https://www.newsweek.com/it-has-never-been-safer-be-cop-3720...
    - NoOneNew 6y ago
      Dont persue? Dude the reason the cat with the warrant hasn't been caught is because they dont show up to their known residence. They are EVADING. Their home isnt a safe space from warrants. You just effectively nullified the entire reason to have a warrant out for someone's arrest, let alone reason for bail so someone shows up to court. And no, it's not safer in the sense they aren't shot. Body armor has gotten better and the likelihood of surviving a few rounds to the chest has gone up. The shootings haven't changed, just the body armor. Get out of your sick fantasy world. Better yet, go be a cop to help reform. See for yourself before you think you have an opinion.
      - TeaDrunk 6y ago
        > Better yet, go be a cop to help reform. See for yourself before you think you have an opinion. Cops who attempt to turn in bad cops get fucked up by other cops, so this is a no-go. Otherwise I generally agree with your point that not checking for warrants has a really bad consequence of potentially letting go of people who have warrants out for committing heinous, heinous crimes. (Admittedly, often times cops have let go of people during traffic stops without checking for warrants. Several serial killers for example.)
    - daenz 6y ago
      > The rate of murders of police officers matches roughly the rate in the general population. And they wear body armor, can call for backup, and can engage threats with deadly force. I would imagine a job with those tactical advantages would have a much much lower murder rate than the general population.
  - krastanov 6y ago
    Of course it should not! Traffic stops should not be a dragnet.
    - throwaway201103 6y ago
      OK, so then you're going to have some explaining to do when someone with a warrant commits another violent crime, and it turns out that the week prior he was pulled over for some traffic violation and was let go.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        If only we had a similar expectation of "explaining to do" when the opposite happens, and an innocent person winds up dead because of an armed traffic stop? Philando Castile serves as a good example.
        throwaway201103 6y ago
        Well, since there was an investigation, criminal charges, and a jury trial, it sounds like it was "explained" as much as our system is capable of.
        ceejayoz 6y ago
        Given that the cop was acquitted of all charges, perhaps the system should be capable of more here?
        throwaway201103 6y ago
        Maybe so. Neither you nor I were on the jury though. We don't just get to ignore a jury decision and impose our own personal justice because from the outside it doesn't seem fair. There were two blacks on the jury, according to what I read on Wikipedia.
        daenz 6y ago
        This is a really bad faith response. Truthfully, out of all the traffic stops, which do you think happens at a higher rate: instances like Philando Castile, or instances where someone pulled over has a warrant for a violent crime and goes on to commit more violent crime? If you have to stop and think about it for an extended amount of time, then to me, that suggests you have a strong bias in one direction.
- NoOneNew 6y ago
  How do you know to send a social worker or a cop before they're identified and checked for warrants? Or do we just do 100% unarmed social workers and ask the dude with a warrant to kindly wait about 5 to 10 minutes for cops to come over to arrest them?
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    Seems to work in Denver thus far. https://www.denverpost.com/2020/09/06/denver-star-program-mental-health-police/ https://www.denverpost.com/2020/09/06/denver-star-program-me... > Since its launch June 1, the STAR van has responded to more than 350 calls, replacing police in matters that don’t threaten public safety and are often connected to unmet mental or physical needs. The goal is to connect people who pose no danger with services and resources while freeing up police to respond to other calls. The team, which is not armed, has not called police for backup, Sailon said. > The team has responded to an indecent exposure call that turned out to be a woman changing clothes in an alley because she was unhoused and had no other private place to go. They’ve been called out to a trespassing call for a man who was setting up a tent near someone’s home. They’ve helped people experiencing suicidal thoughts, people slumped against a fence, people simply acting strange. > “It’s amazing how much stuff comes across 911 as the general, ‘I don’t know what to do, I guess I’ll call 911,’” Richardson said. “Someone sets up a tent? 911. I can’t find someone? 911.”
    - wool_gather 6y ago
      There's a similar organization in Eugene, OR called CAHOOTS: https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/articles/2020-07-06/eugene-oregons-30-year-experiment-with-reimagining-public-safety https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/articles/2020-07-06/eugen...
Avshalom 6y ago
Endless? In 2019 there were 48 cops killed in the line of duty by 'felonious acts'. 6 were killed during traffic stops https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2019-statistics-on-law-enforcement-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-release...
- daenz 6y ago
  I've seen a lot of police dashcam shootings, I guess my inaccuracy was to assume all of the officers actually died.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    Consider the possibility that you see them because they're rare and thus notable enough to make the news etc. Also consider the possibility that there's propaganda benefit to making the public think it's common.
    - throwaway201103 6y ago
      This is also the case for cops shooting unarmed people.
    - daenz 6y ago
      You're misinterpreting my "endless videos" comment to mean "happens with great regularly", instead of "this an established scenario to train for", within the context of traffic stops. People shoot cops at traffic stops, it's a thing that happens, and people should be aware of it. From your comments, it seems that because you can show that it's relatively rare, nobody should expect, plan for, or train for it. I look at stats that show police murder rate comparable to the general population and I am honestly impressed that they are able to keep it that low while dealing with some of the most dangerous elements of society. Do you believe it is because violent criminals have a similar level of hatred towards police as they do a member of the general public, or is it because police train for the worst case scenario?
NoOneNew 6y ago
Adding on to what you said: What people dont get about traffic stops, to issue someone a ticket, their ID needs to be ran to be validated. What also happens when you run an ID? Oh this person has a warrant(s). Who tends to shoot cops or anyone who decides to pull them over? People with warrants because they dont want to go to jail! Or they're riding dirty. An unarmed ticket maid won't stop the problems. Anyways, domestic disputes are some of the most dangerous calls for cops. A social worker to diffuse the situation seems like a good idea in theory. However reality doesn't give 2 shits about theory. The reason 911 is called out to these is because violence is about to happen, is happening or has been. Hell, Jacksonville sent a female officer to a a domestic dispute of something being stolen between 2 females last year. Body cam shows the officer walks up to the door, knocks, announces herself takes two steps back and waits. A chick just opens the door with a knife and stabs the female officer. "Anecdotal" you say. No. I used to do security integration for a few police departments in Colorado. I got to know a lot of them and would just hear and see this dumb shit nearly daily. Hell, watch Donut Operator on youtube. The amount of videos like this are ridiculously high. Just out of the blue, a seemingly innocent call, someone gets their stupid on and attacks the cops. And this is Colorado (Denverand Co Springs area). Not the most dangerous area in the country. I now live in Florida. Do I think cops need a few weeks of better deescalation training or even a better training program needs to be developed? Absolutely and I know for a fact about 80% of other cops want this because they were talking about it back in 2015. Do all cops need to have better hand to hand combat training so they dont need to always result to their firearm or the ineffective less than lethal countermeasures provided (yea tasers and bean bags dont work nearly as often as you think). My opinion doesn't matter because 100% of cops have begged for this, again, since 2015 that I know of. But that all requires funding, unlike Seattle deciding to cut the PD budget by a 3rd, saying they wanted to take more and made their black female chief the poorest paid chief in Seattle history. Who, mind you, even the most racist sexist asshole who looks at her resume will say she earned being the chief, without question. I swear a majority of people are rational and understand that reality is a dangerous place and bad things happen. They know that defunding the cops and sending an unarmed social worker is just going to result in higher body bag orders or the police are going to get reinvented through them. That's enough internet for now.

by daenz 6y ago

ceejayoz 6y ago

> There are endless videos of cops being executed by unhinged drivers who were pulled over for things like "a busted headlight." Frequently, this is because they suspect the cop will find they have a warrant or contraband and the stop will proceed past a ticket to arrest and felony charges. Separating the civil and criminal enforcement here makes these encounters safer; we can see this in countries where traffic cops aren't routinely armed.

throwaway201103 6y ago
So a traffic stop shouldn't involve a check for outstanding warrants?
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  There are a variety of different opinions on the matter. Don't check at all. Check, but report without pursuit. Some have issues with traffic stops entirely, given the racial biases involved in who to pull over. (Demonstrated most effectively in this study, where the disparity disappears when the sun goes down: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/inside-100-million-police-traffic-stops-new-evidence-racial-bias-n980556 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/inside-100-million-poli... / https://news.stanford.edu/2020/05/05/veil-darkness-reduces-racial-bias-traffic-stops/ https://news.stanford.edu/2020/05/05/veil-darkness-reduces-r...) There's also the fact that the scary "normal cops being executed by unhinged drivers" scenario is a vanishingly rare scenario. The rate of murders of police officers matches roughly the rate in the general population. https://www.newsweek.com/it-has-never-been-safer-be-cop-372025 https://www.newsweek.com/it-has-never-been-safer-be-cop-3720...
  - NoOneNew 6y ago
    Dont persue? Dude the reason the cat with the warrant hasn't been caught is because they dont show up to their known residence. They are EVADING. Their home isnt a safe space from warrants. You just effectively nullified the entire reason to have a warrant out for someone's arrest, let alone reason for bail so someone shows up to court. And no, it's not safer in the sense they aren't shot. Body armor has gotten better and the likelihood of surviving a few rounds to the chest has gone up. The shootings haven't changed, just the body armor. Get out of your sick fantasy world. Better yet, go be a cop to help reform. See for yourself before you think you have an opinion.
    - TeaDrunk 6y ago
      > Better yet, go be a cop to help reform. See for yourself before you think you have an opinion. Cops who attempt to turn in bad cops get fucked up by other cops, so this is a no-go. Otherwise I generally agree with your point that not checking for warrants has a really bad consequence of potentially letting go of people who have warrants out for committing heinous, heinous crimes. (Admittedly, often times cops have let go of people during traffic stops without checking for warrants. Several serial killers for example.)
  - daenz 6y ago
    > The rate of murders of police officers matches roughly the rate in the general population. And they wear body armor, can call for backup, and can engage threats with deadly force. I would imagine a job with those tactical advantages would have a much much lower murder rate than the general population.
- krastanov 6y ago
  Of course it should not! Traffic stops should not be a dragnet.
  - throwaway201103 6y ago
    OK, so then you're going to have some explaining to do when someone with a warrant commits another violent crime, and it turns out that the week prior he was pulled over for some traffic violation and was let go.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      If only we had a similar expectation of "explaining to do" when the opposite happens, and an innocent person winds up dead because of an armed traffic stop? Philando Castile serves as a good example.
      - throwaway201103 6y ago
        Well, since there was an investigation, criminal charges, and a jury trial, it sounds like it was "explained" as much as our system is capable of.
        ceejayoz 6y ago
        Given that the cop was acquitted of all charges, perhaps the system should be capable of more here?
        throwaway201103 6y ago
        Maybe so. Neither you nor I were on the jury though. We don't just get to ignore a jury decision and impose our own personal justice because from the outside it doesn't seem fair. There were two blacks on the jury, according to what I read on Wikipedia.
      - daenz 6y ago
        This is a really bad faith response. Truthfully, out of all the traffic stops, which do you think happens at a higher rate: instances like Philando Castile, or instances where someone pulled over has a warrant for a violent crime and goes on to commit more violent crime? If you have to stop and think about it for an extended amount of time, then to me, that suggests you have a strong bias in one direction.
NoOneNew 6y ago
How do you know to send a social worker or a cop before they're identified and checked for warrants? Or do we just do 100% unarmed social workers and ask the dude with a warrant to kindly wait about 5 to 10 minutes for cops to come over to arrest them?
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Seems to work in Denver thus far. https://www.denverpost.com/2020/09/06/denver-star-program-mental-health-police/ https://www.denverpost.com/2020/09/06/denver-star-program-me... > Since its launch June 1, the STAR van has responded to more than 350 calls, replacing police in matters that don’t threaten public safety and are often connected to unmet mental or physical needs. The goal is to connect people who pose no danger with services and resources while freeing up police to respond to other calls. The team, which is not armed, has not called police for backup, Sailon said. > The team has responded to an indecent exposure call that turned out to be a woman changing clothes in an alley because she was unhoused and had no other private place to go. They’ve been called out to a trespassing call for a man who was setting up a tent near someone’s home. They’ve helped people experiencing suicidal thoughts, people slumped against a fence, people simply acting strange. > “It’s amazing how much stuff comes across 911 as the general, ‘I don’t know what to do, I guess I’ll call 911,’” Richardson said. “Someone sets up a tent? 911. I can’t find someone? 911.”
  - wool_gather 6y ago
    There's a similar organization in Eugene, OR called CAHOOTS: https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/articles/2020-07-06/eugene-oregons-30-year-experiment-with-reimagining-public-safety https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/articles/2020-07-06/eugen...

Avshalom 6y ago

Endless? In 2019 there were 48 cops killed in the line of duty by 'felonious acts'. 6 were killed during traffic stops https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2019-statistics-on-law-enforcement-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-release...

daenz 6y ago
I've seen a lot of police dashcam shootings, I guess my inaccuracy was to assume all of the officers actually died.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Consider the possibility that you see them because they're rare and thus notable enough to make the news etc. Also consider the possibility that there's propaganda benefit to making the public think it's common.
  - throwaway201103 6y ago
    This is also the case for cops shooting unarmed people.
  - daenz 6y ago
    You're misinterpreting my "endless videos" comment to mean "happens with great regularly", instead of "this an established scenario to train for", within the context of traffic stops. People shoot cops at traffic stops, it's a thing that happens, and people should be aware of it. From your comments, it seems that because you can show that it's relatively rare, nobody should expect, plan for, or train for it. I look at stats that show police murder rate comparable to the general population and I am honestly impressed that they are able to keep it that low while dealing with some of the most dangerous elements of society. Do you believe it is because violent criminals have a similar level of hatred towards police as they do a member of the general public, or is it because police train for the worst case scenario?

NoOneNew 6y ago

Adding on to what you said: What people dont get about traffic stops, to issue someone a ticket, their ID needs to be ran to be validated. What also happens when you run an ID? Oh this person has a warrant(s). Who tends to shoot cops or anyone who decides to pull them over? People with warrants because they dont want to go to jail! Or they're riding dirty. An unarmed ticket maid won't stop the problems. Anyways, domestic disputes are some of the most dangerous calls for cops. A social worker to diffuse the situation seems like a good idea in theory. However reality doesn't give 2 shits about theory. The reason 911 is called out to these is because violence is about to happen, is happening or has been. Hell, Jacksonville sent a female officer to a a domestic dispute of something being stolen between 2 females last year. Body cam shows the officer walks up to the door, knocks, announces herself takes two steps back and waits. A chick just opens the door with a knife and stabs the female officer. "Anecdotal" you say. No. I used to do security integration for a few police departments in Colorado. I got to know a lot of them and would just hear and see this dumb shit nearly daily. Hell, watch Donut Operator on youtube. The amount of videos like this are ridiculously high. Just out of the blue, a seemingly innocent call, someone gets their stupid on and attacks the cops. And this is Colorado (Denverand Co Springs area). Not the most dangerous area in the country. I now live in Florida. Do I think cops need a few weeks of better deescalation training or even a better training program needs to be developed? Absolutely and I know for a fact about 80% of other cops want this because they were talking about it back in 2015. Do all cops need to have better hand to hand combat training so they dont need to always result to their firearm or the ineffective less than lethal countermeasures provided (yea tasers and bean bags dont work nearly as often as you think). My opinion doesn't matter because 100% of cops have begged for this, again, since 2015 that I know of. But that all requires funding, unlike Seattle deciding to cut the PD budget by a 3rd, saying they wanted to take more and made their black female chief the poorest paid chief in Seattle history. Who, mind you, even the most racist sexist asshole who looks at her resume will say she earned being the chief, without question. I swear a majority of people are rational and understand that reality is a dangerous place and bad things happen. They know that defunding the cops and sending an unarmed social worker is just going to result in higher body bag orders or the police are going to get reinvented through them. That's enough internet for now.