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> I've been doing weightlifting (not bodybuilding which you should not do if you value your body long-term! Strength Training and a bit of Olympic Weightligting

> I've been doing weightlifting (not bodybuilding which you should not do if you value your body long-term! Strength Training and a bit of Olympic Weightligting) Much of what bodybuilders do is strength training, especially at the non-professional levels. At amateur levels, effective strength training and effective body building are going to be pretty similar.

mancerayder 6y ago
Yes and No. At least there are two big differentiators. Olympic Weightlifting is generally understood to refer to the movements of clean+jerk, snatch, and associated movements like deadlifting and squatting which are components of the complex lifts. Strength Training very broadly just means a rep range that makes you stronger, not bigger. But commonly one thinks of powerlifting movements: bench press, squats, deadlifts. Notice in none of the above did we talk about bicep curls, pulley exercises, leg curls, or any concentration exercises. We didn't even talk about leg press, because in the above two we only use barbells. So the two big differentiators are: 1. rep range is high with bodybuilding because bodybuilding cares about volume 2. This is the big one. The exercise range for bodybuilding includes many (perhaps mostly) single or few joint exercises. So when you say that at the amateur level it doesn't matter, that's only true in that any amateur will get stronger. That's true. But the similarity ends right there. I speak from experience when I say, starting off as an amateur by copying what bodybuilders are doing (bicep curls and other mirror exercises, high rep ranges and doing many single joint movements instead of functional movements) is a recipe for bad habits and movement patterns that you need to spend years to re-learn later. Not to mention machines are garbage and cause injury since they make you do unnatural things (unless you really know what you are doing, which amateurs do not).
- balfirevic 6y ago
  > Strength Training very broadly just means a rep range that makes you stronger, not bigger. There is no such thing (edit: well, except maybe 1-2 reps, because it's hard to get much volume with those. But beginners shouldn't be doing those anyway). You get stronger in the rep range you practice. People often (in gym circles) mean "1-rep strength" when they say "strength", but such a narrow definition only makes sense if you are competing in powerlifting. As a beginner you want the rep range that maximizes gains/risk and also gains/unpleasantness ratio, which will usually be 5-10. > rep range is high with bodybuilding because bodybuilding cares about volume People who train for strength also care about volume because volume is a great way to get stronger. And also great way to get bigger. Which makes sense, because getting bigger is a great way to get stronger. > starting off as an amateur by copying what bodybuilders are doing I think this is where the most of the confusion comes from. It is bad to start amateurs on stuff that professional body builders do, but it would also be bad to start them on stuff professional powerlifters do (low bar one-rep max squats or speed deadlifts). On the other hand, as an amateur, whether your goal is strength or better physique - the best approach is going to be very similar. > Not to mention machines are garbage and cause injury since they make you do unnatural things (unless you really know what you are doing, which amateurs do not). Some types of machines are absolutely fine (cable machines), other types are also mostly fine - they get a bad reputation from few of the worst offenders such as leg press and leg extension machine.
  - netizen-9748 6y ago
    Just to add to this comment, strength increased with cross-sectional muscle area. Neural adaptation is not entirely separate, but yes the stimuli for increasing each can be generally separated into the low or high rep schemes. For those doing any sort of strength training, as long as you progress in weight for the first 3-4 years gaining muscle mass is unavoidable and not a bad thing at all. Hypertrophy is a well studied area of sport science and as long as you maintain a healthy diet, building muscle is not a negative thing in the least. It even helps with longevity by counteracting the muscle loss associated with aging.
  - mancerayder 6y ago
    Hold on. I know what you're trying to say, reps at 5-10 will give you strength benefits. But there's a nuance you're missing that's quite relevant to the discussion. There are different metabolic options for the muscle, since different muscle cell types behave differently and metabolize differently. There is power, strength and endurance, broadly speaking, with a lot of overlap of course depending on your movement speed, resistance and volume. Which is why that at above around the 5-10 range you mentioned, you begin to touch into the endurance/hypertrophy area. Your comment about 1-2 reps not being good for beginners is questionable, though. It depends what you're training for. 1-2 reps is good or bad, but it all depends on what percentage of your max output you're attempting. a 1-2 rep range at something like an 85-90% of 1 RM isn't particularly offensive or dangerous, but it might not be optimal programming-wise if that is All you do. But it'll give you more strength increase faster than doing 8 reps. Your "there is no such thing" comment is wrong, though. I have in front of me Practical Programming for Strength Training by Mark Rippetoe, and there is a whole chapter that discusses the three muscle fiber types, twelve characteristics, and their relation to rep ranges. There is a continuum of strength v. hypertrophy, and the rep-range of 5 and below being optimally useful for strength training. Sure, any rep range really where you're not doing cardio will lead to both strength and hypertrophy, Especially for an amateur, but there is a rapid fall-off at either end of the scale (low rep = more strength increase / higher rep = endurance + muscle hypertrophy). In short: it's nuanced and I think your 5-10 number is again, a sort of "bodybuilding mentality" seeping into popular discourse, instead of a "good rule of thumb."
- netizen-9748 6y ago
  If you're copying what the advanced (10+ years training) as a newcomer, that was your first mistake. Their training is specifically designed for someone who has the neural adaptation and muscle mass of a person with many years under their belt. You don't progress by doing the same thing for 10 years, that's antithetical to the ideas of adaptation concerning hypertrophy. Look up the lectures by Dr. Mike Israetel for good info.
  - mancerayder 6y ago
    Yeah, I know that copying what a 10 year bodybuilder is doing is no good and not the fault of bodybuilding as a sport. But I'm making an even bolder statement: that using concentration exercises like bicep curls, leg curls and (especially) 3-4 different angles of shoulder and chest work, espcially with machines and high reps, will very much increase your chances of injury. I'm telling you that whenever I walk into a commercial gym or my building gym (i.e. not a powerlifting or oly gym) I see easily 90% of the people doing stuff I know is in bad form at worst, and at best will give them the most mild of training regimens. I blame the culture of bodybuilding (in the U.S. at least. I read that in Eastern Europe there is a very different attitude and training culture starting from school). I argue that barbell training -- functional training more broadly, which includes calisthenics if you want -- is vastly safer and superior to bodybuilding and indeed yes, it does require a bit of personal training and instruction in the beginning.
bproven 6y ago
IMO - just get the Starting Strength book by Mark Rippetoe and run with that for a year or two (or possibly forever depending on your goals). Quick gym sessions (45 min or less), strength focused exercises and IMO for those basic barbell movements it is the best. If after you a bit of time you stall in strength and wish to go farther add in more bodybuilding type exercises or switch to another program like Wendlers 5/3/1...etc But really if I had to recommend anything to most people to stay strong (esp as you age and live the lives we live today), the basic barbell exercises taught in Starting Strength are all you really need for a lifetime.
- mancerayder 6y ago
  For years now I've been focusing on squat, standing press, and (when my elbows heal) pull-ups. My variation are pause squats (3 seconds down, 2 seconds hold, up fast), front squat, and now overhead squat. My variation for the standing ("strict press") is bench press, which I do 1X a week. I try to run 1X a week, sometimes 2X, but I'm inconsistent. I normally do 1X a week of deadlifts and ring rows but I have an elbow flare-up at the moment. I do the three main ones (squat, press and pullup) 3X a week. No push day, no pull day, every workout is squat day. No machines -- evah! No curls. None of that. I do a small amount of accessory work for core, forearm muscles, and neck muscles, as well as PT work. I also spend a LOT of time warming up, probably 30 minutes. I'm in my lower 40's and recently tested with pretty solid testosterone of 670, and bloodwork is all good. I look way younger for my age. I also do intermittent fasting (really just skipping breakfast). I do drink, however. There was a period when my gym closed during the pandemic and I had no alternative. I had to take a couple months off. Well, the muscles remained muscles (which does not happen so much with bodybuilders, who tend to get their muscles convert to fat pretty quickly), and after a few months I'm back to squatting pretty decently (I can do 1.6X my bodyweight for 5x5). I absolutely recommend strength training for the older guy. Especially the PC nerd older guy. I plan to continue weight training but cut out 1 day and instead learn proper calisthenics.

mancerayder 6y ago

Yes and No. At least there are two big differentiators. Olympic Weightlifting is generally understood to refer to the movements of clean+jerk, snatch, and associated movements like deadlifting and squatting which are components of the complex lifts. Strength Training very broadly just means a rep range that makes you stronger, not bigger. But commonly one thinks of powerlifting movements: bench press, squats, deadlifts. Notice in none of the above did we talk about bicep curls, pulley exercises, leg curls, or any concentration exercises. We didn't even talk about leg press, because in the above two we only use barbells. So the two big differentiators are: 1. rep range is high with bodybuilding because bodybuilding cares about volume 2. This is the big one. The exercise range for bodybuilding includes many (perhaps mostly) single or few joint exercises. So when you say that at the amateur level it doesn't matter, that's only true in that any amateur will get stronger. That's true. But the similarity ends right there. I speak from experience when I say, starting off as an amateur by copying what bodybuilders are doing (bicep curls and other mirror exercises, high rep ranges and doing many single joint movements instead of functional movements) is a recipe for bad habits and movement patterns that you need to spend years to re-learn later. Not to mention machines are garbage and cause injury since they make you do unnatural things (unless you really know what you are doing, which amateurs do not).

balfirevic 6y ago
> Strength Training very broadly just means a rep range that makes you stronger, not bigger. There is no such thing (edit: well, except maybe 1-2 reps, because it's hard to get much volume with those. But beginners shouldn't be doing those anyway). You get stronger in the rep range you practice. People often (in gym circles) mean "1-rep strength" when they say "strength", but such a narrow definition only makes sense if you are competing in powerlifting. As a beginner you want the rep range that maximizes gains/risk and also gains/unpleasantness ratio, which will usually be 5-10. > rep range is high with bodybuilding because bodybuilding cares about volume People who train for strength also care about volume because volume is a great way to get stronger. And also great way to get bigger. Which makes sense, because getting bigger is a great way to get stronger. > starting off as an amateur by copying what bodybuilders are doing I think this is where the most of the confusion comes from. It is bad to start amateurs on stuff that professional body builders do, but it would also be bad to start them on stuff professional powerlifters do (low bar one-rep max squats or speed deadlifts). On the other hand, as an amateur, whether your goal is strength or better physique - the best approach is going to be very similar. > Not to mention machines are garbage and cause injury since they make you do unnatural things (unless you really know what you are doing, which amateurs do not). Some types of machines are absolutely fine (cable machines), other types are also mostly fine - they get a bad reputation from few of the worst offenders such as leg press and leg extension machine.
- netizen-9748 6y ago
  Just to add to this comment, strength increased with cross-sectional muscle area. Neural adaptation is not entirely separate, but yes the stimuli for increasing each can be generally separated into the low or high rep schemes. For those doing any sort of strength training, as long as you progress in weight for the first 3-4 years gaining muscle mass is unavoidable and not a bad thing at all. Hypertrophy is a well studied area of sport science and as long as you maintain a healthy diet, building muscle is not a negative thing in the least. It even helps with longevity by counteracting the muscle loss associated with aging.
- mancerayder 6y ago
  Hold on. I know what you're trying to say, reps at 5-10 will give you strength benefits. But there's a nuance you're missing that's quite relevant to the discussion. There are different metabolic options for the muscle, since different muscle cell types behave differently and metabolize differently. There is power, strength and endurance, broadly speaking, with a lot of overlap of course depending on your movement speed, resistance and volume. Which is why that at above around the 5-10 range you mentioned, you begin to touch into the endurance/hypertrophy area. Your comment about 1-2 reps not being good for beginners is questionable, though. It depends what you're training for. 1-2 reps is good or bad, but it all depends on what percentage of your max output you're attempting. a 1-2 rep range at something like an 85-90% of 1 RM isn't particularly offensive or dangerous, but it might not be optimal programming-wise if that is All you do. But it'll give you more strength increase faster than doing 8 reps. Your "there is no such thing" comment is wrong, though. I have in front of me Practical Programming for Strength Training by Mark Rippetoe, and there is a whole chapter that discusses the three muscle fiber types, twelve characteristics, and their relation to rep ranges. There is a continuum of strength v. hypertrophy, and the rep-range of 5 and below being optimally useful for strength training. Sure, any rep range really where you're not doing cardio will lead to both strength and hypertrophy, Especially for an amateur, but there is a rapid fall-off at either end of the scale (low rep = more strength increase / higher rep = endurance + muscle hypertrophy). In short: it's nuanced and I think your 5-10 number is again, a sort of "bodybuilding mentality" seeping into popular discourse, instead of a "good rule of thumb."
netizen-9748 6y ago
If you're copying what the advanced (10+ years training) as a newcomer, that was your first mistake. Their training is specifically designed for someone who has the neural adaptation and muscle mass of a person with many years under their belt. You don't progress by doing the same thing for 10 years, that's antithetical to the ideas of adaptation concerning hypertrophy. Look up the lectures by Dr. Mike Israetel for good info.
- mancerayder 6y ago
  Yeah, I know that copying what a 10 year bodybuilder is doing is no good and not the fault of bodybuilding as a sport. But I'm making an even bolder statement: that using concentration exercises like bicep curls, leg curls and (especially) 3-4 different angles of shoulder and chest work, espcially with machines and high reps, will very much increase your chances of injury. I'm telling you that whenever I walk into a commercial gym or my building gym (i.e. not a powerlifting or oly gym) I see easily 90% of the people doing stuff I know is in bad form at worst, and at best will give them the most mild of training regimens. I blame the culture of bodybuilding (in the U.S. at least. I read that in Eastern Europe there is a very different attitude and training culture starting from school). I argue that barbell training -- functional training more broadly, which includes calisthenics if you want -- is vastly safer and superior to bodybuilding and indeed yes, it does require a bit of personal training and instruction in the beginning.

bproven 6y ago

IMO - just get the Starting Strength book by Mark Rippetoe and run with that for a year or two (or possibly forever depending on your goals). Quick gym sessions (45 min or less), strength focused exercises and IMO for those basic barbell movements it is the best. If after you a bit of time you stall in strength and wish to go farther add in more bodybuilding type exercises or switch to another program like Wendlers 5/3/1...etc But really if I had to recommend anything to most people to stay strong (esp as you age and live the lives we live today), the basic barbell exercises taught in Starting Strength are all you really need for a lifetime.

mancerayder 6y ago
For years now I've been focusing on squat, standing press, and (when my elbows heal) pull-ups. My variation are pause squats (3 seconds down, 2 seconds hold, up fast), front squat, and now overhead squat. My variation for the standing ("strict press") is bench press, which I do 1X a week. I try to run 1X a week, sometimes 2X, but I'm inconsistent. I normally do 1X a week of deadlifts and ring rows but I have an elbow flare-up at the moment. I do the three main ones (squat, press and pullup) 3X a week. No push day, no pull day, every workout is squat day. No machines -- evah! No curls. None of that. I do a small amount of accessory work for core, forearm muscles, and neck muscles, as well as PT work. I also spend a LOT of time warming up, probably 30 minutes. I'm in my lower 40's and recently tested with pretty solid testosterone of 670, and bloodwork is all good. I look way younger for my age. I also do intermittent fasting (really just skipping breakfast). I do drink, however. There was a period when my gym closed during the pandemic and I had no alternative. I had to take a couple months off. Well, the muscles remained muscles (which does not happen so much with bodybuilders, who tend to get their muscles convert to fat pretty quickly), and after a few months I'm back to squatting pretty decently (I can do 1.6X my bodyweight for 5x5). I absolutely recommend strength training for the older guy. Especially the PC nerd older guy. I plan to continue weight training but cut out 1 day and instead learn proper calisthenics.