5 ms·

Compared to all the other places we could discuss the recent affairs online, HN is a unique place because we are the ones who’ve built the big tech industry. So

by m94710 6y ago

Compared to all the other places we could discuss the recent affairs online, HN is a unique place because we are the ones who’ve built the big tech industry. So we’re in the unique position of having to grapple with whether we’re failing the American people, or if we’re actually enabling good moral and ethical decisions Personally I fall more on the former side. Whatever your stance, the tech industry is going through a deep existential moment right now

grzm 6y ago
> "we are the ones who’ve built the big tech industry" Some of the participants on HN are some of the those who've build the big tech industry. It's always important to keep in mind that HN is more than just "big tech" and that "big tech" is more than just HN. Just as it's important when we're categorizing or characterizing any sufficiently large community.
- ReaLNero 6y ago
  This strikes me as insightless pedantry. Of course the union of the two sets isn't the intersection of the two sets! Nobody was debating this. I am fairly certain what the parent comments meant was that the people on HN are a significant portion of the talent (note: talent != headcount) of big tech. HN is a fantastic resource for learning about new tech. And being curious around technology is usually a sign that you're much above average.
  - grzm 6y ago
    When you have so many people talking past each other because they're bucketing groups of people and assigning to them beliefs and behaviors while dismissing concerns with the casual "do all x believe y?" with on-going violent results, I don't think it's pedantry at all. In less heated times when people are engaged in good-faith debate, we can be more lax with our language. From the discussions of the past few days, that's clearly not the case right now. We're unlikely to get past this without first being more nuanced ourselves.
afavour 6y ago
I’d throw a note of caution in the opposite direction though: as a group, HN are very atypical users of social media. Every time there’s a post about Facebook one of the most upvoted comments is someone saying they deleted Facebook. Societally speaking that’s super weird. I still have Facebook but even then, over the holidays I saw the feeds of some older relatives and it was unlike anything I’ve seen before. An absolute mess of corrosive disinformation. Even knowing about it, I still don’t know it well. I don’t live in it. I can’t speak about it authoritatively. And it’s not even like, say, a subreddit. You can’t wander in and take a look, it’s all private to the user. I don’t know whether the current censorship moves are wise or not, but as a group we’re not exposed to the reason the censorship is taking place. The HN crowd tends to lean towards free speech absolutism (as does the internet at large), which feels like a good reflex in general. But there’s mitigating context here and I don’t know that we (as a group) are the best people to talk to it.
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  I argue that the "i deleted facebook" is a perfectly typical user of social media. Its trendy to tell that you quit Facebook. Instead "follow me on instagram". HN is social media, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.
  - afavour 6y ago
    “typical” in the sense that there are lots of examples of it, yes. But “typical” in the sense that it’s something the majority of people do... absolutely not. My social circle is full of people that deleted FB. But when I step outside that circle not being on FB is very rare.
  - alsetmusic 6y ago
    > I argue that the "i deleted facebook" is a perfectly typical user of social media. Its trendy to tell that you quit Facebook. Instead "follow me on instagram". I don't think a typical HN participant is deleting their FB account and then telling people to follow them on Instagram. HN readers know that Instagram is owned by FB.
  - 6y ago
abernard1 6y ago
> or if we’re actually enabling good moral and ethical decisions What an unbelievably patronizing worldview. Personally, I think classical industry should act in kind, and refuse to sell gasoline, clothes, electricity, food, etc. to anyone who gave voice to BLM. Let's see who wins this tiresome war of refusing to do business with anyone whom we disagree.
- pmarreck 6y ago
  The best evidence I could find says 7% of the protests weren't peaceful, and those almost entirely after sundown. You might argue that 7% has already lost an org credibility, but that's still 93% of protests that were peaceful. Also, if you were black, how many George Floyd-esque videos do you think it would take you to see before you got physically angry? (Note that I'm partially blaming the media optimizing for outrage, here)
  - abernard1 6y ago
    And 7% of those protests killed over 25 people and caused > $1B in damage. 6th street in Austin is completely gone. People who live in major metros may not understand this, but rural America is laughing at them. These cities are national embarrassments. But that's not the point. The point is the sheer arrogance required to believe that they're qualified to control what people are allowed to read. These same people can't even keep their cities from being burned down, 50+% increases in murder rates, fecal matter on the streets, people leaving in droves... I'm supposed to listen to them? Really?
    - wool_gather 6y ago
      Disregarding the hyperbole, rural areas have their own set of problems that seem outrageous in turn to city dwellers. It's easy to scorn the speck in your neighbor's eye; removing one's own is more constructive.
      - abernard1 6y ago
        They most definitely do have their own set of problems. But if 90% of Twitter was run by Republicans who lived exclusively in rural areas, would you like it if they deplatformed Biden? Would that be construed as offensive? Because that exact scenario is happening in reverse. People at tech companies in San Francisco who vote 90+% Democrat have just kicked off the Republican president of the United States. They've been talking about it for years, and this event is just pretext.
jcampbell1 6y ago
Watch Chappel’s “killing them softly” from 2002. It is a good reminder that BLM is a product of social media and smartphone cameras. Remember there have been tons of George Floyds before George Floyd. The difference is social media and cameras. Social media is rough and polarizing, but on balance I expect history will see it as a positive with growing pains. Also, the funniest line ever told starts with “Open and shut case, Johnson. I saw this once before when I was a rookie.”

by m94710 6y ago

grzm 6y ago

> "we are the ones who’ve built the big tech industry" Some of the participants on HN are some of the those who've build the big tech industry. It's always important to keep in mind that HN is more than just "big tech" and that "big tech" is more than just HN. Just as it's important when we're categorizing or characterizing any sufficiently large community.

ReaLNero 6y ago
This strikes me as insightless pedantry. Of course the union of the two sets isn't the intersection of the two sets! Nobody was debating this. I am fairly certain what the parent comments meant was that the people on HN are a significant portion of the talent (note: talent != headcount) of big tech. HN is a fantastic resource for learning about new tech. And being curious around technology is usually a sign that you're much above average.
- grzm 6y ago
  When you have so many people talking past each other because they're bucketing groups of people and assigning to them beliefs and behaviors while dismissing concerns with the casual "do all x believe y?" with on-going violent results, I don't think it's pedantry at all. In less heated times when people are engaged in good-faith debate, we can be more lax with our language. From the discussions of the past few days, that's clearly not the case right now. We're unlikely to get past this without first being more nuanced ourselves.

afavour 6y ago

I’d throw a note of caution in the opposite direction though: as a group, HN are very atypical users of social media. Every time there’s a post about Facebook one of the most upvoted comments is someone saying they deleted Facebook. Societally speaking that’s super weird. I still have Facebook but even then, over the holidays I saw the feeds of some older relatives and it was unlike anything I’ve seen before. An absolute mess of corrosive disinformation. Even knowing about it, I still don’t know it well. I don’t live in it. I can’t speak about it authoritatively. And it’s not even like, say, a subreddit. You can’t wander in and take a look, it’s all private to the user. I don’t know whether the current censorship moves are wise or not, but as a group we’re not exposed to the reason the censorship is taking place. The HN crowd tends to lean towards free speech absolutism (as does the internet at large), which feels like a good reflex in general. But there’s mitigating context here and I don’t know that we (as a group) are the best people to talk to it.

NikolaeVarius 6y ago
I argue that the "i deleted facebook" is a perfectly typical user of social media. Its trendy to tell that you quit Facebook. Instead "follow me on instagram". HN is social media, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.
- afavour 6y ago
  “typical” in the sense that there are lots of examples of it, yes. But “typical” in the sense that it’s something the majority of people do... absolutely not. My social circle is full of people that deleted FB. But when I step outside that circle not being on FB is very rare.
- alsetmusic 6y ago
  > I argue that the "i deleted facebook" is a perfectly typical user of social media. Its trendy to tell that you quit Facebook. Instead "follow me on instagram". I don't think a typical HN participant is deleting their FB account and then telling people to follow them on Instagram. HN readers know that Instagram is owned by FB.
- 6y ago

abernard1 6y ago

> or if we’re actually enabling good moral and ethical decisions What an unbelievably patronizing worldview. Personally, I think classical industry should act in kind, and refuse to sell gasoline, clothes, electricity, food, etc. to anyone who gave voice to BLM. Let's see who wins this tiresome war of refusing to do business with anyone whom we disagree.

pmarreck 6y ago
The best evidence I could find says 7% of the protests weren't peaceful, and those almost entirely after sundown. You might argue that 7% has already lost an org credibility, but that's still 93% of protests that were peaceful. Also, if you were black, how many George Floyd-esque videos do you think it would take you to see before you got physically angry? (Note that I'm partially blaming the media optimizing for outrage, here)
- abernard1 6y ago
  And 7% of those protests killed over 25 people and caused > $1B in damage. 6th street in Austin is completely gone. People who live in major metros may not understand this, but rural America is laughing at them. These cities are national embarrassments. But that's not the point. The point is the sheer arrogance required to believe that they're qualified to control what people are allowed to read. These same people can't even keep their cities from being burned down, 50+% increases in murder rates, fecal matter on the streets, people leaving in droves... I'm supposed to listen to them? Really?
  - wool_gather 6y ago
    Disregarding the hyperbole, rural areas have their own set of problems that seem outrageous in turn to city dwellers. It's easy to scorn the speck in your neighbor's eye; removing one's own is more constructive.
    - abernard1 6y ago
      They most definitely do have their own set of problems. But if 90% of Twitter was run by Republicans who lived exclusively in rural areas, would you like it if they deplatformed Biden? Would that be construed as offensive? Because that exact scenario is happening in reverse. People at tech companies in San Francisco who vote 90+% Democrat have just kicked off the Republican president of the United States. They've been talking about it for years, and this event is just pretext.

jcampbell1 6y ago

Watch Chappel’s “killing them softly” from 2002. It is a good reminder that BLM is a product of social media and smartphone cameras. Remember there have been tons of George Floyds before George Floyd. The difference is social media and cameras. Social media is rough and polarizing, but on balance I expect history will see it as a positive with growing pains. Also, the funniest line ever told starts with “Open and shut case, Johnson. I saw this once before when I was a rookie.”