4 ms·

I remember seeing them waving American flags during protests, presumably as a reference to liberty. I thought, “I wish we lived up to their perceptions of us.”

loceng 6y ago
Of course the CCP used those photos as propaganda to reenforce the arguably false narrative presented to mainland Chinese that the CIA was behind the resistance. The psychological aspect of warfare never ceases to amaze me.
- dragonsh 6y ago
  Not everything is a propaganda there is some truth to it, given Hong Kong is the only ground left for US to try to destabilise China to slow its growth. This is also the reason China took hardline on Hong Kong as they see it as strategic weak spot. Moreover actions of China in Hong Kong are supported by majority of people in China. This tyranny of majority exists in democracy too, what happened in Kashmir is 100 times worse than HK. Given the way US president pardoned people who committed genocide in Afganistan and killed scores of kids and unarmed civilians. There is hardly any ground left for them to teach others. No real death in over an year of violent protests by police firing in Hong Kong vs 5 deaths in capitol building siege speaks volumes about the professionalism with which Hong Kong police handled the protests. China is built by hard work of its people not by CCP [1]. May be work there for a while and than you can see why Korea, Japan and Greater China did so well not others in growth. It’s easy to talk rhetoric, but hard to do hard work to bring about transformation. [1] https://danwang.co/2020-letter/ https://danwang.co/2020-letter/
  - jcytong 6y ago
    It's mostly CCP propaganda though if you actually talk to HK people and see how the majority of them tried to work within the system to "make the change" since the early 90s and fight for what was promised in the Basic Law[1] which was drafted by a committee with 36 representatives from China and 23 from HK. It promised that the Chief Executive of HK and its legislative council to be formed by an election.[2] The Chief Executive election has been delayed for 2 decades requiring the CCP to "pre-filter" candidates which the public rejected. The legislative council election has been controlled by disqualifying candidates as well as the mass arrest of 53 pro-democracy candidates for simply organizing the primaries and engaging in debates. [3] TLDR; China wasn't as strong in 90s so took a softer stance. Later decided to go back on its words so had to find ways to control the elections or the results. > No real death in over an year of violent protests by police firing in Hong Kong vs 5 deaths in capitol building siege speaks volumes about the professionalism with which Hong Kong police handled the protests. This is not true. After witnessing the 2019 movement and the real police behavior captured on live tv/news[4], I have a much better understanding of the Stanford prisoner experiment. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law [2]https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/chapter_4.html https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/chapter_4.html [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Hong_Kong_Legislative_Council_candidates%27_disqualification_controversyhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Hong_Kong_protests#During_confrontations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Hong_Kong_Legislative_Cou... [4]https://tl.hkrev.info/en/police-timeline/ https://tl.hkrev.info/en/police-timeline/
    - dragonsh 6y ago
      There are two sides of coin in HK. People who supported violent protestors and people who didn’t. Like any other society some support govt and some do not. People who support govt and not protestors their shops, restaurants, businesses vandalised and were constantly harassed. It became politically impossible to voice against the protestors due to fear of violence, know this first hand not by talking but living through it. Please read the Basic Law and also the extradition bill [1]. Extradition being better was still opposed and ultimately National security law was passed to give teeth to administration to stop violent protests. It’s the vehement majority of Hong Kong people who gave rights to reinterpret Basic Law to stem the flow of people from mainland China (since court of final appeal was going to allow spouses and children of Hong Kong residents from other parts of China to settle in HK). This is the same provision used for implementing National security law. So in HK people got what they asked for and also majority Chinese supported this action on HK. So like any democracy like USA and India a law which appease majority pass easily same happened here. [1] https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bills/b201903291.pdf https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bills/b201903291.pd...
      - hkmaxpro 6y ago
        > It’s the vehement majority of Hong Kong people who gave rights to reinterpret Basic Law to stem the flow of people from mainland China (since court of final appeal was going to allow spouses and children of Hong Kong residents from other parts of China to settle in HK) > So in HK people got what they asked for and also majority Chinese supported this action on HK. So like any democracy like USA and India a law which appease majority pass easily same happened here. Both statements are false. The first reinterpretation of the Basic Law on the right of adobe in 1999 wasn’t the result of ANY DEMOCRATIC PROCESS involving the majority of Hong Kongers. Some polls may show that a large fraction of Hong Kongers prefer the RESULTING VERDICT on right of adobe, but the reinterpretation is unlike any democratic process as in the US or India, that has a rigorous and formal voting process. And certainly not a majority of Hong Kongers support repeated interpretations of the basic law by people not directly elected in Hong Kong. The end doesn’t justify the means. You have confused the end and the means.
  - loceng 6y ago
    Re: your link - Could you point me specifically to what you were referencing as part of saying "China is built by hard work of its people not by CCP"? Thanks in advance. The way to slow China's growth most efficiently is through economics; it's not the people of China that we want growth to slow for, the purpose and intent is to take power away from the CCP - to free the people of China, as in America and other Democracies, we inherently trust - have faith - that individuals can make the right, good, best decisions for themselves. "Moreover actions of China in Hong Kong are supported by majority of people in China" - this is the functional result of control-oppression systems on free speech with threat of a spectrum of potential harm that can come to you, your family, even your place of work. This isn't the positive argument point you think it is. The CCP can control the narrative and suppress the truth as they see fit. "Given the way US president pardoned people who committed genocide..." - this is a very weak argument considering the US compared to the China is an apples to oranges comparison to begin with: every 4 years the US has an election vs. in China it's the CCP in control always; this is a weak foundation to argue from on its own. It's an even weaker argument when you don't understand that Democracy - and the freedom to vote - is literally polling the population to understand that state of the union, of the nation, their health and their beliefs. Trump is a symptom of multi-generational dis-ease progression, where the efficiencies of capitalism, along with the duopoly that's been able to form and solidify - along with the regulatory capture that has occurred for 4+ decades, industrial complexes and bad actors tightening their grip of society by extracting more and more resources from the average person, and allowing suffering and dis-ease progression to occur. Mainstream media has played a role as well, the amalgamation of it into just a small handful of controllers - for TV and newspapers - has allowed the narrative to be more easily controlled; not as much as the CCP's control but it gets close to it, resulting in only 2 main narratives - of the duopoly. It’s incorrect, a mistake to believe Trump is America, he simply made his way up through broken-weak systems that I just described - that exist via currently inadequate policy, this current state - status quo - that we can and have learned from - and will evolve from with new, updated policy to help steer, right this ship called America. Sorry but the "no deaths" is a false dichotomy - the treatment of these people can be like of the Uighurs if they don't fall in line with whatever rules they want to enforce; and certainly the CCP will be looking into everyone in HK's past to then see what they should do with them on a case-by-case basis. "China is built by hard work of its people not by CCP." - you're injecting an argument that that makes it seem like I or other people believe Chinese people aren't hard workers? I bet no reasonable person would put forward that argument, no reasonable person would think Chinese people are lazy. It sounds more like propaganda/narrative that the CCP would want to perpetuate to try to demonize the "other" - so the Chinese population will think "we" think lesser of them, to cause them to dislike, be angry with, or hate "us." The majority of reasonable people of Democratic nations only want the best for the Chinese people, and the majority are reasonable - however there are for example the ~74 million Americans who have been mislead, manipulated, by Trump, the captured Republican party and mainstream media that these people watch - to believe Trump was the answer to "Make American Great Again" - except Trump isn't an entrepreneur or a businessman, he's a con artist and a pathological liar, and archetypical narcissist; someone like Andrew Yang, who's an entrepreneur and has been successful, learning through experience and understanding the foundation, math, and exponentials of how policy propagates - is the type of person, along with his holistic-foundational policy proposals, are the polar opposite to Trump; and the slogan play of MATH - "Make America Think Harder" is simply a beautiful refinement and contrast to MAGA. And seriously - we only want the best for the people of China, and a foundational part of what's best for EVERYONE in the world - to avoid the pitfalls of tyranny and avoid potential scenarios like Uighurs "re-education" camps (genocide by internationally agreed standards) - is freedom of speech. Happy to continue this discussion or clarify anything.
  - hkmaxpro 6y ago
    > No real death in over an year of violent protests by police firing It’s just that the Hong Kong police is better at cover-ups. A female protestors was found fully naked and dead at sea. A whistle-blower police officer confessed on a KBS documentary that the case was initially investigated as a murder case, but the higher-ups later forbade murder investigation, and hastily classified it as a “suicide”. [0] Another man was seen suspiciously thrown out of a window at a disciplined services quarters (whose tenants are mostly police) [1], and yet the case wasn’t even investigated. Neither of these cases is definite proof of Hong Kong police killing protestors. And yet without proper investigation, you can easily hide casualties even when there are. I must stress that guns are forbidden in Hong Kong, whereas guns appeared in the Capitol Hill on Jan 6 among some protestors. It’s not surprising that Hong Kong police may have a milder response than the US police. You can’t compare apples to oranges. [0] https://youtu.be/7y8f3l2Eve8?t=542 https://youtu.be/7y8f3l2Eve8?t=542 [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/eo1l01/zoomed_version_of_man_falling_from_police_quarters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/eo1l01/zoomed_ver...
joe433343 6y ago
As a not a native American. The one thing that i admire most about America is its importance to liberty as part of the constitution and as a main stream culture.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
  FYI the term "Native American" usually refers to the indigenous people of America. You could maybe refer to yourself as "non-American," a "first-gen American," or an "American immigrant," depending on what you are and what you're trying to say.
koonsolo 6y ago
European here. What happend now in US was a total shitshow, but in the end it's nice to see that your democratic system took the upper hand. So be proud that your system works, and you didn't end up in some sort of Russian democracy.

loceng 6y ago

Of course the CCP used those photos as propaganda to reenforce the arguably false narrative presented to mainland Chinese that the CIA was behind the resistance. The psychological aspect of warfare never ceases to amaze me.

dragonsh 6y ago
Not everything is a propaganda there is some truth to it, given Hong Kong is the only ground left for US to try to destabilise China to slow its growth. This is also the reason China took hardline on Hong Kong as they see it as strategic weak spot. Moreover actions of China in Hong Kong are supported by majority of people in China. This tyranny of majority exists in democracy too, what happened in Kashmir is 100 times worse than HK. Given the way US president pardoned people who committed genocide in Afganistan and killed scores of kids and unarmed civilians. There is hardly any ground left for them to teach others. No real death in over an year of violent protests by police firing in Hong Kong vs 5 deaths in capitol building siege speaks volumes about the professionalism with which Hong Kong police handled the protests. China is built by hard work of its people not by CCP [1]. May be work there for a while and than you can see why Korea, Japan and Greater China did so well not others in growth. It’s easy to talk rhetoric, but hard to do hard work to bring about transformation. [1] https://danwang.co/2020-letter/ https://danwang.co/2020-letter/
- jcytong 6y ago
  It's mostly CCP propaganda though if you actually talk to HK people and see how the majority of them tried to work within the system to "make the change" since the early 90s and fight for what was promised in the Basic Law[1] which was drafted by a committee with 36 representatives from China and 23 from HK. It promised that the Chief Executive of HK and its legislative council to be formed by an election.[2] The Chief Executive election has been delayed for 2 decades requiring the CCP to "pre-filter" candidates which the public rejected. The legislative council election has been controlled by disqualifying candidates as well as the mass arrest of 53 pro-democracy candidates for simply organizing the primaries and engaging in debates. [3] TLDR; China wasn't as strong in 90s so took a softer stance. Later decided to go back on its words so had to find ways to control the elections or the results. > No real death in over an year of violent protests by police firing in Hong Kong vs 5 deaths in capitol building siege speaks volumes about the professionalism with which Hong Kong police handled the protests. This is not true. After witnessing the 2019 movement and the real police behavior captured on live tv/news[4], I have a much better understanding of the Stanford prisoner experiment. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law [2]https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/chapter_4.html https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/chapter_4.html [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Hong_Kong_Legislative_Council_candidates%27_disqualification_controversyhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Hong_Kong_protests#During_confrontations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Hong_Kong_Legislative_Cou... [4]https://tl.hkrev.info/en/police-timeline/ https://tl.hkrev.info/en/police-timeline/
  - dragonsh 6y ago
    There are two sides of coin in HK. People who supported violent protestors and people who didn’t. Like any other society some support govt and some do not. People who support govt and not protestors their shops, restaurants, businesses vandalised and were constantly harassed. It became politically impossible to voice against the protestors due to fear of violence, know this first hand not by talking but living through it. Please read the Basic Law and also the extradition bill [1]. Extradition being better was still opposed and ultimately National security law was passed to give teeth to administration to stop violent protests. It’s the vehement majority of Hong Kong people who gave rights to reinterpret Basic Law to stem the flow of people from mainland China (since court of final appeal was going to allow spouses and children of Hong Kong residents from other parts of China to settle in HK). This is the same provision used for implementing National security law. So in HK people got what they asked for and also majority Chinese supported this action on HK. So like any democracy like USA and India a law which appease majority pass easily same happened here. [1] https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bills/b201903291.pdf https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bills/b201903291.pd...
    - hkmaxpro 6y ago
      > It’s the vehement majority of Hong Kong people who gave rights to reinterpret Basic Law to stem the flow of people from mainland China (since court of final appeal was going to allow spouses and children of Hong Kong residents from other parts of China to settle in HK) > So in HK people got what they asked for and also majority Chinese supported this action on HK. So like any democracy like USA and India a law which appease majority pass easily same happened here. Both statements are false. The first reinterpretation of the Basic Law on the right of adobe in 1999 wasn’t the result of ANY DEMOCRATIC PROCESS involving the majority of Hong Kongers. Some polls may show that a large fraction of Hong Kongers prefer the RESULTING VERDICT on right of adobe, but the reinterpretation is unlike any democratic process as in the US or India, that has a rigorous and formal voting process. And certainly not a majority of Hong Kongers support repeated interpretations of the basic law by people not directly elected in Hong Kong. The end doesn’t justify the means. You have confused the end and the means.
- loceng 6y ago
  Re: your link - Could you point me specifically to what you were referencing as part of saying "China is built by hard work of its people not by CCP"? Thanks in advance. The way to slow China's growth most efficiently is through economics; it's not the people of China that we want growth to slow for, the purpose and intent is to take power away from the CCP - to free the people of China, as in America and other Democracies, we inherently trust - have faith - that individuals can make the right, good, best decisions for themselves. "Moreover actions of China in Hong Kong are supported by majority of people in China" - this is the functional result of control-oppression systems on free speech with threat of a spectrum of potential harm that can come to you, your family, even your place of work. This isn't the positive argument point you think it is. The CCP can control the narrative and suppress the truth as they see fit. "Given the way US president pardoned people who committed genocide..." - this is a very weak argument considering the US compared to the China is an apples to oranges comparison to begin with: every 4 years the US has an election vs. in China it's the CCP in control always; this is a weak foundation to argue from on its own. It's an even weaker argument when you don't understand that Democracy - and the freedom to vote - is literally polling the population to understand that state of the union, of the nation, their health and their beliefs. Trump is a symptom of multi-generational dis-ease progression, where the efficiencies of capitalism, along with the duopoly that's been able to form and solidify - along with the regulatory capture that has occurred for 4+ decades, industrial complexes and bad actors tightening their grip of society by extracting more and more resources from the average person, and allowing suffering and dis-ease progression to occur. Mainstream media has played a role as well, the amalgamation of it into just a small handful of controllers - for TV and newspapers - has allowed the narrative to be more easily controlled; not as much as the CCP's control but it gets close to it, resulting in only 2 main narratives - of the duopoly. It’s incorrect, a mistake to believe Trump is America, he simply made his way up through broken-weak systems that I just described - that exist via currently inadequate policy, this current state - status quo - that we can and have learned from - and will evolve from with new, updated policy to help steer, right this ship called America. Sorry but the "no deaths" is a false dichotomy - the treatment of these people can be like of the Uighurs if they don't fall in line with whatever rules they want to enforce; and certainly the CCP will be looking into everyone in HK's past to then see what they should do with them on a case-by-case basis. "China is built by hard work of its people not by CCP." - you're injecting an argument that that makes it seem like I or other people believe Chinese people aren't hard workers? I bet no reasonable person would put forward that argument, no reasonable person would think Chinese people are lazy. It sounds more like propaganda/narrative that the CCP would want to perpetuate to try to demonize the "other" - so the Chinese population will think "we" think lesser of them, to cause them to dislike, be angry with, or hate "us." The majority of reasonable people of Democratic nations only want the best for the Chinese people, and the majority are reasonable - however there are for example the ~74 million Americans who have been mislead, manipulated, by Trump, the captured Republican party and mainstream media that these people watch - to believe Trump was the answer to "Make American Great Again" - except Trump isn't an entrepreneur or a businessman, he's a con artist and a pathological liar, and archetypical narcissist; someone like Andrew Yang, who's an entrepreneur and has been successful, learning through experience and understanding the foundation, math, and exponentials of how policy propagates - is the type of person, along with his holistic-foundational policy proposals, are the polar opposite to Trump; and the slogan play of MATH - "Make America Think Harder" is simply a beautiful refinement and contrast to MAGA. And seriously - we only want the best for the people of China, and a foundational part of what's best for EVERYONE in the world - to avoid the pitfalls of tyranny and avoid potential scenarios like Uighurs "re-education" camps (genocide by internationally agreed standards) - is freedom of speech. Happy to continue this discussion or clarify anything.
- hkmaxpro 6y ago
  > No real death in over an year of violent protests by police firing It’s just that the Hong Kong police is better at cover-ups. A female protestors was found fully naked and dead at sea. A whistle-blower police officer confessed on a KBS documentary that the case was initially investigated as a murder case, but the higher-ups later forbade murder investigation, and hastily classified it as a “suicide”. [0] Another man was seen suspiciously thrown out of a window at a disciplined services quarters (whose tenants are mostly police) [1], and yet the case wasn’t even investigated. Neither of these cases is definite proof of Hong Kong police killing protestors. And yet without proper investigation, you can easily hide casualties even when there are. I must stress that guns are forbidden in Hong Kong, whereas guns appeared in the Capitol Hill on Jan 6 among some protestors. It’s not surprising that Hong Kong police may have a milder response than the US police. You can’t compare apples to oranges. [0] https://youtu.be/7y8f3l2Eve8?t=542 https://youtu.be/7y8f3l2Eve8?t=542 [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/eo1l01/zoomed_version_of_man_falling_from_police_quarters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/eo1l01/zoomed_ver...

joe433343 6y ago

As a not a native American. The one thing that i admire most about America is its importance to liberty as part of the constitution and as a main stream culture.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
FYI the term "Native American" usually refers to the indigenous people of America. You could maybe refer to yourself as "non-American," a "first-gen American," or an "American immigrant," depending on what you are and what you're trying to say.

koonsolo 6y ago

European here. What happend now in US was a total shitshow, but in the end it's nice to see that your democratic system took the upper hand. So be proud that your system works, and you didn't end up in some sort of Russian democracy.