7 ms·

The west needs to sanction China. This is violation of China's treaty obligations, it's not just a domestic issue, it's an international law issue, and it shoul

by mantap 6y ago

The west needs to sanction China. This is violation of China's treaty obligations, it's not just a domestic issue, it's an international law issue, and it should have international consequences.

orange_tee 6y ago
China is strong and the UK is weak. The treaty is not valid anymore. Only an idiot would say otherwise.
- eloisius 6y ago
  The terms of the treaty state anything about the relative strength of each nation?
  - wwwwwwwww 6y ago
    I tell you a secret: The CCP doesn't actually care about the rules of international law. Who is gonna stop them? Nobody.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      This is the problem restated, yes, and that’s what we’re talking about.
    - orange_tee 6y ago
      Neither does the US or the UK or any other country that actually matters. And btw there is no such thing as international law.
      - sbdisns 6y ago
        I mean, you’re right, however most constitutions, including the US, put treaty obligations as equal in force of law.
  - sbdisns 6y ago
    But that’s how treaties work. We’re just upset we’re not the ones breaking treaties anymore. Ironically, the treaty was signed because the British pretended they were in a Position to unilaterally re-negotiate a previous treaty obligating them to return HL. The Chinese had no obligation to sign the 1980s treaty to get HK back, and were hardly intimidated by the UK’s 1980s military might to do so (I mean an British admiral said about the Falkland war: “if not for a few defective fuses we would have lost”. Against Argentina. Pretty pathetic) The UK was delusionaly saying it might not give HK back to commies (understandable sentiment, surely) and the commies signed something to let the Brits save face. About HK: There’s nothing we can do. Deluding ourselves that there is weakens us We must contain the CCP, but HK is not it.
  - verroq 6y ago
    The relative strengths of the nations help to dictate the terms. Treaty of Nanking was signed after the defeat of the Qing army, you think the terms were favourable to the Qing Emperor?
- 98hio 6y ago
  Of course it's valid. If it can be enforced is another issue.
throwaway93388 6y ago
> This is violation of China's treaty obligations Maybe it's time to de-colonise Hong Kong and just give it back to the Chinese properly? It's not our business how they conduct their internal affairs.
- koonsolo 6y ago
  First of all, you seem to be talking about the PRC and not Chinese. All of us would gladly take China away from the CCP dictatorship, and give it to the Chinese people as a true democracy. Secondly, here is such a thing as human rights, and westerners believe that such a thing is worldwide. We should not close our eyes to the wrongdoing that is done to our fellow human beings.
justinzollars 6y ago
China produces everything. We produce dollars, scrap products, corn, soybeans, timber, plastics and some software [1]. Where would you get all of your things if we did that? [1] https://www.uschina.org/reports/us-exports/national https://www.uschina.org/reports/us-exports/national
- hndudette2 6y ago
  From China. Sanctions don't necessarily mean ceasing all trade.
- 98hio 6y ago
  Well, they produce a lot.
wwwwwwwww 6y ago
China invaded and annexed the Scarborough Shoal in 2012 and the Obama Administration did nothing. Despite the defense treaty with the Phillippines. The Biden Administration will hand Hong Kong (and Taiwan) over to the CCP, just like they did with a part of the Phillippines 8 years ago.
knolax 6y ago
A century old treaty signed at gunpoint can be dissolved at gunpoint.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  That’s not how international obligations work. Most borders were defined at gunpoint but we generally don’t allow for arbitrary redefinition when the loser gets uppity, Crimea aside.
  - knolax 6y ago
    That's not how international relations work. Appealing to some arbitrary set of conventions (that you prove in your own comment don't get followed) and then complaining that the other side is "uppity" does nothing.
    - lazylizard 6y ago
      china probably wouldnt mind burning Versailles n Buckingham to the ground, recovering taiwan. then taking over hawaii and returning it 100 years later.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        The history of the region is far more complicated of course, you’re neglecting that Macau wasn’t lost in a war. It was leased as a trading post. There’s no reason to believe that the contiguous border China would like to espouse is either historically fair or reasonable today. Macau is more like St Pierre and Miquelon or Point Roberts. It’s governed under the same terms as HK. It’s also unclear why Taiwan should be “recovered” at all, they were two factions of the cultural revolution sure, but that doesn’t mean they should be unified now any more than the UK should “recover” America.
        lazylizard 6y ago
        of their quarrels with the rest of the world. to the chinese. i think taiwan is the least negotiable. they're not done yet, their revolutionary war. we can of course disagree with china. but ignoring what they want is...i don't know...naive?
AnHonestComment 6y ago
The reason this is happening now is recent US events have shown Chinas subversion of the Democratic Party and 2020 election were successful, and they can safely act now that Trump is sidelined. This is probing ahead of attacking Taiwan.
baybal2 6y ago
> The west needs to sanction China. Do you understand that the West mostly sanctions itself when it tries to sanction a country which: 1. Has surreal trade surplus with it. 2. Supports nearly entire consumer spending part of your economy. 3. Provides most of your light industry goods. 4. Buys a big chunk of your debt. This is why I was saying that China can easily do a blunder, after a blunder, and still outmatch the West economically, and you need something other than simply sanctions.
- 411111111111111 6y ago
  Isn't the point of sanctions to make the offending product so expensive that other options become more viable? They would've to be hard enough to make it more cost effective to create a new production line in another nation over buying the sanctioned goods. Not without consequences for the consumer and political suicide if attempted... but technically possible
  - baybal2 6y ago
    > Isn't the point of sanctions to make the offending product so expensive that other options become more viable? The key word here is other options. Are there any? China on other hand has many other options than the US market. They will have no problem redirecting things like household goods, and other light industry products to other markets without impact to its industrial capacity. That's what has happened in 2008, and indeed worked marvelously for them in the end. When the American economy was flopped, they simply took all those luxuries destined for sale to America, dumped them on developing markets, and adjusted quality-quantity balance for this target market.
    - hkmaxpro 6y ago
      > The key word here is other options. Are there any? Yes if you ask about them at the right place, like https://www.reddit.com/r/avoidchineseproducts/ https://www.reddit.com/r/avoidchineseproducts/
- loceng 6y ago

by mantap 6y ago

The west needs to sanction China. This is violation of China's treaty obligations, it's not just a domestic issue, it's an international law issue, and it should have international consequences.

orange_tee 6y ago

China is strong and the UK is weak. The treaty is not valid anymore. Only an idiot would say otherwise.

eloisius 6y ago
The terms of the treaty state anything about the relative strength of each nation?
- wwwwwwwww 6y ago
  I tell you a secret: The CCP doesn't actually care about the rules of international law. Who is gonna stop them? Nobody.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    This is the problem restated, yes, and that’s what we’re talking about.
  - orange_tee 6y ago
    Neither does the US or the UK or any other country that actually matters. And btw there is no such thing as international law.
    - sbdisns 6y ago
      I mean, you’re right, however most constitutions, including the US, put treaty obligations as equal in force of law.
- sbdisns 6y ago
  But that’s how treaties work. We’re just upset we’re not the ones breaking treaties anymore. Ironically, the treaty was signed because the British pretended they were in a Position to unilaterally re-negotiate a previous treaty obligating them to return HL. The Chinese had no obligation to sign the 1980s treaty to get HK back, and were hardly intimidated by the UK’s 1980s military might to do so (I mean an British admiral said about the Falkland war: “if not for a few defective fuses we would have lost”. Against Argentina. Pretty pathetic) The UK was delusionaly saying it might not give HK back to commies (understandable sentiment, surely) and the commies signed something to let the Brits save face. About HK: There’s nothing we can do. Deluding ourselves that there is weakens us We must contain the CCP, but HK is not it.
- verroq 6y ago
  The relative strengths of the nations help to dictate the terms. Treaty of Nanking was signed after the defeat of the Qing army, you think the terms were favourable to the Qing Emperor?
98hio 6y ago
Of course it's valid. If it can be enforced is another issue.

throwaway93388 6y ago

> This is violation of China's treaty obligations Maybe it's time to de-colonise Hong Kong and just give it back to the Chinese properly? It's not our business how they conduct their internal affairs.

koonsolo 6y ago
First of all, you seem to be talking about the PRC and not Chinese. All of us would gladly take China away from the CCP dictatorship, and give it to the Chinese people as a true democracy. Secondly, here is such a thing as human rights, and westerners believe that such a thing is worldwide. We should not close our eyes to the wrongdoing that is done to our fellow human beings.

justinzollars 6y ago

China produces everything. We produce dollars, scrap products, corn, soybeans, timber, plastics and some software [1]. Where would you get all of your things if we did that? [1] https://www.uschina.org/reports/us-exports/national https://www.uschina.org/reports/us-exports/national

hndudette2 6y ago
From China. Sanctions don't necessarily mean ceasing all trade.
98hio 6y ago
Well, they produce a lot.

wwwwwwwww 6y ago

China invaded and annexed the Scarborough Shoal in 2012 and the Obama Administration did nothing. Despite the defense treaty with the Phillippines. The Biden Administration will hand Hong Kong (and Taiwan) over to the CCP, just like they did with a part of the Phillippines 8 years ago.

knolax 6y ago

A century old treaty signed at gunpoint can be dissolved at gunpoint.

arcticbull 6y ago
That’s not how international obligations work. Most borders were defined at gunpoint but we generally don’t allow for arbitrary redefinition when the loser gets uppity, Crimea aside.
- knolax 6y ago
  That's not how international relations work. Appealing to some arbitrary set of conventions (that you prove in your own comment don't get followed) and then complaining that the other side is "uppity" does nothing.
  - lazylizard 6y ago
    china probably wouldnt mind burning Versailles n Buckingham to the ground, recovering taiwan. then taking over hawaii and returning it 100 years later.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      The history of the region is far more complicated of course, you’re neglecting that Macau wasn’t lost in a war. It was leased as a trading post. There’s no reason to believe that the contiguous border China would like to espouse is either historically fair or reasonable today. Macau is more like St Pierre and Miquelon or Point Roberts. It’s governed under the same terms as HK. It’s also unclear why Taiwan should be “recovered” at all, they were two factions of the cultural revolution sure, but that doesn’t mean they should be unified now any more than the UK should “recover” America.
      - lazylizard 6y ago
        of their quarrels with the rest of the world. to the chinese. i think taiwan is the least negotiable. they're not done yet, their revolutionary war. we can of course disagree with china. but ignoring what they want is...i don't know...naive?

AnHonestComment 6y ago

The reason this is happening now is recent US events have shown Chinas subversion of the Democratic Party and 2020 election were successful, and they can safely act now that Trump is sidelined. This is probing ahead of attacking Taiwan.

baybal2 6y ago

> The west needs to sanction China. Do you understand that the West mostly sanctions itself when it tries to sanction a country which: 1. Has surreal trade surplus with it. 2. Supports nearly entire consumer spending part of your economy. 3. Provides most of your light industry goods. 4. Buys a big chunk of your debt. This is why I was saying that China can easily do a blunder, after a blunder, and still outmatch the West economically, and you need something other than simply sanctions.

411111111111111 6y ago
Isn't the point of sanctions to make the offending product so expensive that other options become more viable? They would've to be hard enough to make it more cost effective to create a new production line in another nation over buying the sanctioned goods. Not without consequences for the consumer and political suicide if attempted... but technically possible
- baybal2 6y ago
  > Isn't the point of sanctions to make the offending product so expensive that other options become more viable? The key word here is other options. Are there any? China on other hand has many other options than the US market. They will have no problem redirecting things like household goods, and other light industry products to other markets without impact to its industrial capacity. That's what has happened in 2008, and indeed worked marvelously for them in the end. When the American economy was flopped, they simply took all those luxuries destined for sale to America, dumped them on developing markets, and adjusted quality-quantity balance for this target market.
  - hkmaxpro 6y ago
    > The key word here is other options. Are there any? Yes if you ask about them at the right place, like https://www.reddit.com/r/avoidchineseproducts/ https://www.reddit.com/r/avoidchineseproducts/
loceng 6y ago