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I spent a lot of time doing technical editing professionally – checking that docs met their stated objectives, that they were logically structured, that they sa

I spent a lot of time doing technical editing professionally – checking that docs met their stated objectives, that they were logically structured, that they satisfied house styles, etc, etc. Recently a friend of mine has written their first novel and I offered to have a look as an editor. They can actually write well, spell correctly, etc, so the ‘technical’ aspects were very easy – there were very few typos, ungrammatical sentences, etc. Instead, I found myself looking for things like * situations where the PoV character knew things that were actually hidden from them in the plot (e.g. something happening simultaneously in a different location) * situations where characters acted unexpectedly out-of-character for no obvious reason * places where the timeline or scene jumped unexpectedly (e.g. in successive paragraphs in the same chapter) * phrases that were overused * whether something that was supposed to be a surprise for the reader had actually been signposted. I’d love to know if there is a checklist of issues for fiction writing in general: not standard plots / characters / etc, but mistakes like those above to look out for. (I certainly didn’t find it in the article).

zombie_owlbear 6y ago
As a writer, I can tell you you're doing very valuable work for your friend. The vast majority of people can't tell you when something's wrong with the writing even if they want to, let alone point a finger at it. I don't have a list, but here's something that I dealt with recently: * Is everything sufficiently described/explained? - Environment descriptions: Is it clear where the scene is set? - Character motivation: Does the reader understand why they decided to do <x>? - Are there enough clues for the conclusion / reveal / twist to make sense? - What day is it? Whenever a reader finds something confusing, it's usually a matter of that thing not having been described enough. * Are the characters distinctive enough? - Have I described each in a non-perfunctory way? - Could I tell who's saying which line if I removed the dialogue tags? - Is someone just a background character when they ought to be a person? * Can a paragraph be cut down into a sentence without losing anything? Edit: * Is there enough tension throughout the story? Is the main character lacking personal stakes in the plot?
- KineticLensman 6y ago
  Thank you! Your last point - about tension - is an interesting one - it's the one where I found it hardest to comment. I think this was because the genre wasn't one that I normally read, and I didn't really know whether the degree of tension was appropriate for the anticipated readership. Someone else who looked at the same book said "He doesn't suffer enough" and I found myself agreeing. I guess this is an example of the difference between me - who was in effect looking for technical plot consistency - and a professional editor who is aware of the genre conventions and reader expectations.
  - zombie_owlbear 6y ago
    That last point was something neither I nor my dozen readers had noticed, but the editor I hired did. It was such a major point that I decided the book needed a near-complete rewrite to fix. The editor was worth the money just for that one thing! You're definitely right about genre conventions playing a big role. That said, you can still say "I think the character hasn't suffered enough, but maybe that's normal in this genre". What I said about my own editor is actually interesting because they don't normally edit my genre, which was obvious in some aspects, but they could still point out the pacing / tension issue.
mc32 6y ago
Phrases that are overused: in regular speech that is quite normal. Also in other languages with less borrowing there are way more stock phrases that are used over and over and it's normal. So being exposed to example French or Chinese you learn that the perception of overuse of a phrase is mostly an English language thing of the upper classes —middle and lower classes don’t observe this aversion as much.
- KineticLensman 6y ago
  I was thinking of phrases that are overused by the author. In this case, they said multiple times that characters 'screamed with laughter'. On about the 5th time this became somewhat jarring. You are right that in reported speech a specific character might repeat the same thing over and over. And that in stylised writing there may be stock phrases that are always used without problem. A good example here is the The Iliad by Homer, which uses multiple stock phrases to support oral presentation by a story-teller to an audience. Children's literature may use similar conventions (e.g. "Once upon a time...", "And they all lived Happily ever-after")
- jacobolus 6y ago
  There are plenty of phrases used commonly in English too; that's usually not a problem. But it can make writing less effective if e.g. several unrelated situations are described by the same weak metaphor, or if the author's personal speech tics leak into dialog and several characters use the same unusual phrase.
  - mc32 6y ago
    Yeah over-stretching can be an issue or multiple characters using the same phrases. However, in other languages it’s more normal to have these situations as they don’t have as many options to choose from. One interesting thing is when you begin learn one of those languages, initially, one might feel that speech is filled with overused phrases, but when you think about it, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with using the same phrase to describe the same situation. In English there’s a linguistic tug to use one phrase at beginning of a sentence and to end it with a synonymous phrase at the end: “Be deliberate in your speech, avoid uhhms and ahhs; people notice those things and ding your speech, so avoid fillers, meaningless utterances distract listeners. Your audience will perceive it and will discount your oration” Ok oration is overwrought but you get my pint.

zombie_owlbear 6y ago

As a writer, I can tell you you're doing very valuable work for your friend. The vast majority of people can't tell you when something's wrong with the writing even if they want to, let alone point a finger at it. I don't have a list, but here's something that I dealt with recently: * Is everything sufficiently described/explained? - Environment descriptions: Is it clear where the scene is set? - Character motivation: Does the reader understand why they decided to do <x>? - Are there enough clues for the conclusion / reveal / twist to make sense? - What day is it? Whenever a reader finds something confusing, it's usually a matter of that thing not having been described enough. * Are the characters distinctive enough? - Have I described each in a non-perfunctory way? - Could I tell who's saying which line if I removed the dialogue tags? - Is someone just a background character when they ought to be a person? * Can a paragraph be cut down into a sentence without losing anything? Edit: * Is there enough tension throughout the story? Is the main character lacking personal stakes in the plot?

KineticLensman 6y ago
Thank you! Your last point - about tension - is an interesting one - it's the one where I found it hardest to comment. I think this was because the genre wasn't one that I normally read, and I didn't really know whether the degree of tension was appropriate for the anticipated readership. Someone else who looked at the same book said "He doesn't suffer enough" and I found myself agreeing. I guess this is an example of the difference between me - who was in effect looking for technical plot consistency - and a professional editor who is aware of the genre conventions and reader expectations.
- zombie_owlbear 6y ago
  That last point was something neither I nor my dozen readers had noticed, but the editor I hired did. It was such a major point that I decided the book needed a near-complete rewrite to fix. The editor was worth the money just for that one thing! You're definitely right about genre conventions playing a big role. That said, you can still say "I think the character hasn't suffered enough, but maybe that's normal in this genre". What I said about my own editor is actually interesting because they don't normally edit my genre, which was obvious in some aspects, but they could still point out the pacing / tension issue.

mc32 6y ago

Phrases that are overused: in regular speech that is quite normal. Also in other languages with less borrowing there are way more stock phrases that are used over and over and it's normal. So being exposed to example French or Chinese you learn that the perception of overuse of a phrase is mostly an English language thing of the upper classes —middle and lower classes don’t observe this aversion as much.

KineticLensman 6y ago
I was thinking of phrases that are overused by the author. In this case, they said multiple times that characters 'screamed with laughter'. On about the 5th time this became somewhat jarring. You are right that in reported speech a specific character might repeat the same thing over and over. And that in stylised writing there may be stock phrases that are always used without problem. A good example here is the The Iliad by Homer, which uses multiple stock phrases to support oral presentation by a story-teller to an audience. Children's literature may use similar conventions (e.g. "Once upon a time...", "And they all lived Happily ever-after")
jacobolus 6y ago
There are plenty of phrases used commonly in English too; that's usually not a problem. But it can make writing less effective if e.g. several unrelated situations are described by the same weak metaphor, or if the author's personal speech tics leak into dialog and several characters use the same unusual phrase.
- mc32 6y ago
  Yeah over-stretching can be an issue or multiple characters using the same phrases. However, in other languages it’s more normal to have these situations as they don’t have as many options to choose from. One interesting thing is when you begin learn one of those languages, initially, one might feel that speech is filled with overused phrases, but when you think about it, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with using the same phrase to describe the same situation. In English there’s a linguistic tug to use one phrase at beginning of a sentence and to end it with a synonymous phrase at the end: “Be deliberate in your speech, avoid uhhms and ahhs; people notice those things and ding your speech, so avoid fillers, meaningless utterances distract listeners. Your audience will perceive it and will discount your oration” Ok oration is overwrought but you get my pint.