6 ms·

The storming of the Capitol was another 9/11 type of event, we are now in the same climate that lead to the Patriot Act, war, torture and countless other abuses

The storming of the Capitol was another 9/11 type of event, we are now in the same climate that lead to the Patriot Act, war, torture and countless other abuses. People are cheering on the bans without thinking further of the massive negative consequences this slippery slope will likely lead to. Glenn Greenwald did an excellent interview yesterday where he explained exactly why acting hastily after traumatic events and rage is so damn short sighted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMVS9tfNyjc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMVS9tfNyjc

DonHopkins 6y ago
The 9/11 event was Trump being president during the Corona virus pandemic. His incompetence has been killing more people every day than the number of people killed on 9/11, for quite some time now.
- kristofferR 6y ago
  That's not an argument, I agree that Trump and terrorism is bad. That is not an argument for enacting policies in a collective fit of rage without thinking at all about long-term consequences.
  - web007 6y ago
    Trump being deplatformed from Twitter is long, long overdue. They had to rewrite their content policies to give him a loophole a long time ago, since any normal person would be banned for what he said. They recently started having to add disclaimers, because even the loophole wasn't enough to counter his wrongness and influence.
    - apta_ 6y ago
      Why don't they ban people like https://cdn.cnsnews.com/styles/article_big/s3/2021-01/Arthur%20Chu_1.jpg https://cdn.cnsnews.com/styles/article_big/s3/2021-01/Arthur...
      - web007 6y ago
        I don't know why they don't. They should.
- ethbr0 6y ago
  The 9/11 takeaway is that we should be especially skeptic of making large policy decisions and/or restricting civil liberties after an emotional event, because it's usually an overcorrection that goes unredressed for the next two decades.
  - hmottestad 6y ago
    Which means that if we choose to ignore the Trump aspect of the corona virus and compare the US to other countries you get the following: - no free healthcare means you initially had to pay to get tested - underdeveloped healthcare system (initial wave saw NYC overwhelmed) - lack of labor laws means that you have few rights: no sick days and can easily be fired with no grace period - polarized political environment means that government help takes a lot of time and has to be executed in mammoth size packages - very large country seen as one makes it an easy target for the press (x number of people died instead of x%)
    - ethbr0 6y ago
      > no free healthcare means you initially had to pay to get tested Varied from state to state, no? > underdeveloped healthcare system (initial wave saw NYC overwhelmed) New York City was not overwhelmed in the first wave, and had both Javits and the Mercy as unused spare capacity. > lack of labor laws means that you have few rights: no sick days and can easily be fired with no grace period Varied from employer to employer. For example, my employer at the time added Covid-quarantine-specific PTO, full PTO for high risk groups that felt uncomfortable, and bonuses for those who chose to work during the pandemic. > polarized political environment means that government help takes a lot of time and has to be executed in mammoth size packages This has always been true of the federal response. States can't typically defecit budget, by law, so the federal government typically allocates money for them in chunks.
      - craftinator 6y ago
        > New York City was not overwhelmed in the first wave, and had both Javits and the Mercy as unused spare capacity. This is not in line with the facts as I understand them. Multiple health care workers I know told me in March-April that their ability to treat Covid patients were capped by constrained resources (not enough ventilators, not enough staff, not enough beds) during the first wave. Here [1] is an article that supports these anecdotes. Also, the Navy hospital ships refused to accept patient transfers, even as the hospitals were completely full [2]. "On top of its strict rules preventing people infected with the virus from coming on board, the Navy is also refusing to treat a host of other conditions. " and "Mr. Dowling said he has had to tear his hospitals apart, retrofitting any unused space, including lobbies and conference rooms, into hospital wards.". So no, you are incorrect. NY hospitals were absolutely overrun during the first wave. Please do not perpetuate a narrative that isn't supported by facts. 1) https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/us/brooklyn-hospital-coronavirus-patients-deaths/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/us/brooklyn-hospital-coronavi... 2) https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/nyregion/ny-coronavirus-usns-comfort.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/nyregion/ny-coronavirus-u...
- collyw 6y ago
  Out of interest what do you actually expect him to have done regarding covid? He wanted to ban flights from CHina but that was shouted down as being racist. We have had all sorts of nonsense restrictions here in Europe, masks have been mandatory for months and they don't seem to have made a noticeable difference (case numbers keep going up, so restrictions are made tighter, but nothing changes). A number of vaccines have been created in record time (not sure Trump had a great deal to do with that but he certainly didn't hinder it). So what in your opinion should Trump have done?
  - hmottestad 6y ago
    The most important thing he could have done is to communicate clearly about the seriousness of the pandemic.

DonHopkins 6y ago

The 9/11 event was Trump being president during the Corona virus pandemic. His incompetence has been killing more people every day than the number of people killed on 9/11, for quite some time now.

kristofferR 6y ago
That's not an argument, I agree that Trump and terrorism is bad. That is not an argument for enacting policies in a collective fit of rage without thinking at all about long-term consequences.
- web007 6y ago
  Trump being deplatformed from Twitter is long, long overdue. They had to rewrite their content policies to give him a loophole a long time ago, since any normal person would be banned for what he said. They recently started having to add disclaimers, because even the loophole wasn't enough to counter his wrongness and influence.
  - apta_ 6y ago
    Why don't they ban people like https://cdn.cnsnews.com/styles/article_big/s3/2021-01/Arthur%20Chu_1.jpg https://cdn.cnsnews.com/styles/article_big/s3/2021-01/Arthur...
    - web007 6y ago
      I don't know why they don't. They should.
ethbr0 6y ago
The 9/11 takeaway is that we should be especially skeptic of making large policy decisions and/or restricting civil liberties after an emotional event, because it's usually an overcorrection that goes unredressed for the next two decades.
- hmottestad 6y ago
  Which means that if we choose to ignore the Trump aspect of the corona virus and compare the US to other countries you get the following: - no free healthcare means you initially had to pay to get tested - underdeveloped healthcare system (initial wave saw NYC overwhelmed) - lack of labor laws means that you have few rights: no sick days and can easily be fired with no grace period - polarized political environment means that government help takes a lot of time and has to be executed in mammoth size packages - very large country seen as one makes it an easy target for the press (x number of people died instead of x%)
  - ethbr0 6y ago
    > no free healthcare means you initially had to pay to get tested Varied from state to state, no? > underdeveloped healthcare system (initial wave saw NYC overwhelmed) New York City was not overwhelmed in the first wave, and had both Javits and the Mercy as unused spare capacity. > lack of labor laws means that you have few rights: no sick days and can easily be fired with no grace period Varied from employer to employer. For example, my employer at the time added Covid-quarantine-specific PTO, full PTO for high risk groups that felt uncomfortable, and bonuses for those who chose to work during the pandemic. > polarized political environment means that government help takes a lot of time and has to be executed in mammoth size packages This has always been true of the federal response. States can't typically defecit budget, by law, so the federal government typically allocates money for them in chunks.
    - craftinator 6y ago
      > New York City was not overwhelmed in the first wave, and had both Javits and the Mercy as unused spare capacity. This is not in line with the facts as I understand them. Multiple health care workers I know told me in March-April that their ability to treat Covid patients were capped by constrained resources (not enough ventilators, not enough staff, not enough beds) during the first wave. Here [1] is an article that supports these anecdotes. Also, the Navy hospital ships refused to accept patient transfers, even as the hospitals were completely full [2]. "On top of its strict rules preventing people infected with the virus from coming on board, the Navy is also refusing to treat a host of other conditions. " and "Mr. Dowling said he has had to tear his hospitals apart, retrofitting any unused space, including lobbies and conference rooms, into hospital wards.". So no, you are incorrect. NY hospitals were absolutely overrun during the first wave. Please do not perpetuate a narrative that isn't supported by facts. 1) https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/us/brooklyn-hospital-coronavirus-patients-deaths/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/us/brooklyn-hospital-coronavi... 2) https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/nyregion/ny-coronavirus-usns-comfort.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/nyregion/ny-coronavirus-u...
collyw 6y ago
Out of interest what do you actually expect him to have done regarding covid? He wanted to ban flights from CHina but that was shouted down as being racist. We have had all sorts of nonsense restrictions here in Europe, masks have been mandatory for months and they don't seem to have made a noticeable difference (case numbers keep going up, so restrictions are made tighter, but nothing changes). A number of vaccines have been created in record time (not sure Trump had a great deal to do with that but he certainly didn't hinder it). So what in your opinion should Trump have done?
- hmottestad 6y ago
  The most important thing he could have done is to communicate clearly about the seriousness of the pandemic.