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You seem to be requesting perfection from one side but not from the other. To keep on the previous example: Pence and Fox News never called anyone "idiot Trump

by ratww 6y ago

You seem to be requesting perfection from one side but not from the other. To keep on the previous example: Pence and Fox News never called anyone "idiot Trumper" or anything and they are being attacked by that crowd. About climate change: Greta Thunberg has been called all kinds of names without equivalent provocation. And there's a lot of people willing to engage with climate change deniers in the way you're suggesting they should, but a large part of climate change deniers are not willing to accept that those people are acting in good faith. There's lot of accusations that non-deniers are paid shills and stuff like that. Again, why does every person on one side has to be perfect, but the other side gets a pass? Even the Republicans can't control the Trump crowd.

zepto 6y ago
The problem with this is that it’s black and white. Yes, there are clearly completely intractable extremists who won’t engage in good faith. But there are a lot of their people who will.
- ratww 6y ago
  Absolutely, and I acknowledge that: the right itself is full of completely reasonable people that is being shunned by some of the extremists. On the other hand, the same thing should apply to the left! Just because someone on the left has not been using logical arguments and acting in bad faith, it doesn't mean the whole left is doing it. People don't get a free pass on claiming "the left caused it" or (EDIT) "the left not talking to them is the reason they have this opinion".
  - zepto 6y ago
    ‘"the left caused it"’ I agree that this is obvious bullishit. But it’s also bullshit to say ‘the right caused it’. How many people are getting a free pass on saying that right now?
    - ratww 6y ago
      Wait, just so we're on the same page: by "the left caused it" I mean that I don't believe the theory that "the left is to blame for people having extremist opinions because the left doesn't want to talk to them". Not some specific event. I also believe that blaming the whole right for anything is incorrect too, and repeatedly mentioned that some of the right are being shunned by extremists too.
      - zepto 6y ago
        I think that one possible disconnect is the issue of ‘extremism’. I don’t think we can make a black and white division between extremists and everyone else. For example, I think things like saying ‘whiteness’ is the problem, is not particularly associated with the extremes and yet very much are part of the cause of the problem. Similarly, calling everyone on the left a snowflake or a communist, is not only the purview of extremists.
        ratww 6y ago
        > I don’t think we can make a black and white division between extremists and everyone else. I haven't made any black and white division between extremists and anyone else. I always said "large portion of extremists", "a large part of climate change deniers", etc. What I'm replying to here is the multiple posts (not yours) saying that the problem is that some people on the left have been communicating in a combative/ineffective manner. While this is true, I don't believe this is the source of the problem. And demanding perfection from one side while absolving the other is not a fair tactic. It's pure bullshit. Why must the left be flawless? In fact, it's a bit condescending to the extremists.
        zepto 6y ago
        I don’t believe it is the only source. However the situation is a non-exclusive OR. When either side does this, they become part of the cause. The behavior is the source of the problem - not a side. No ‘side’ can claim not to be the cause unless it can curb the behavior. The left cannot curb the right behaving unreasonably, but it might be able to curb unreason on its own side. However this: “demanding perfection from one side while absolving the other” seems like a straw man. If this is being done, it’s clearly being done by the right and the left. When the right say the left are causing the problem by doing this, they are correct. You are also correct to say they aren’t the only ones causing it. However the left cannot improve the situation by pointing fingers at the right and doubling down. The left doesn’t have to be ‘flawless’, but if it’s not better than the right, then how does it expect to improve anything?

by ratww 6y ago

zepto 6y ago

The problem with this is that it’s black and white. Yes, there are clearly completely intractable extremists who won’t engage in good faith. But there are a lot of their people who will.

ratww 6y ago
Absolutely, and I acknowledge that: the right itself is full of completely reasonable people that is being shunned by some of the extremists. On the other hand, the same thing should apply to the left! Just because someone on the left has not been using logical arguments and acting in bad faith, it doesn't mean the whole left is doing it. People don't get a free pass on claiming "the left caused it" or (EDIT) "the left not talking to them is the reason they have this opinion".
- zepto 6y ago
  ‘"the left caused it"’ I agree that this is obvious bullishit. But it’s also bullshit to say ‘the right caused it’. How many people are getting a free pass on saying that right now?
  - ratww 6y ago
    Wait, just so we're on the same page: by "the left caused it" I mean that I don't believe the theory that "the left is to blame for people having extremist opinions because the left doesn't want to talk to them". Not some specific event. I also believe that blaming the whole right for anything is incorrect too, and repeatedly mentioned that some of the right are being shunned by extremists too.
    - zepto 6y ago
      I think that one possible disconnect is the issue of ‘extremism’. I don’t think we can make a black and white division between extremists and everyone else. For example, I think things like saying ‘whiteness’ is the problem, is not particularly associated with the extremes and yet very much are part of the cause of the problem. Similarly, calling everyone on the left a snowflake or a communist, is not only the purview of extremists.
      - ratww 6y ago
        > I don’t think we can make a black and white division between extremists and everyone else. I haven't made any black and white division between extremists and anyone else. I always said "large portion of extremists", "a large part of climate change deniers", etc. What I'm replying to here is the multiple posts (not yours) saying that the problem is that some people on the left have been communicating in a combative/ineffective manner. While this is true, I don't believe this is the source of the problem. And demanding perfection from one side while absolving the other is not a fair tactic. It's pure bullshit. Why must the left be flawless? In fact, it's a bit condescending to the extremists.
        zepto 6y ago
        I don’t believe it is the only source. However the situation is a non-exclusive OR. When either side does this, they become part of the cause. The behavior is the source of the problem - not a side. No ‘side’ can claim not to be the cause unless it can curb the behavior. The left cannot curb the right behaving unreasonably, but it might be able to curb unreason on its own side. However this: “demanding perfection from one side while absolving the other” seems like a straw man. If this is being done, it’s clearly being done by the right and the left. When the right say the left are causing the problem by doing this, they are correct. You are also correct to say they aren’t the only ones causing it. However the left cannot improve the situation by pointing fingers at the right and doubling down. The left doesn’t have to be ‘flawless’, but if it’s not better than the right, then how does it expect to improve anything?