4 ms·

It's far more likely that half the population has been duped into following someone because of clever conniving. Trump knew exactly what to do to build up that

It's far more likely that half the population has been duped into following someone because of clever conniving. Trump knew exactly what to do to build up that base and now that their head is gone, the chicken is running around in the yard with no direction wondering what the hell happened. Once the dust settles, I think a lot of those people will reintegrate into society, especially if they start to receive the benefits of good governance, such as healthcare, assistance due to COVID, robust anti-discrimination, job prospects, etc.

jpttsn 6y ago
I very rarely hear this hope expressed and I struggle to believe it—can you elaborate?
- Tokkemon 6y ago
  I don't doubt that so many people on the right are hurting. Their constant accusations of being called the "fly-over states" is totally true. There is endless rural decay, industry is gone. When life is difficult like that, it is very easy to pine for a time gone past when things were better. But now it's gotten so bad that people are desperate. COVID-19 has made it much worse, and people don't want to follow restrictions as it could be an existential threat. So they try and latch on to the one guy that is rich, because they are not; the one guy that talks straight, tells them what they want to hear. And they fall for him, and pledge their support. Combine that with a severely underfunded education system where people don't think critically and just think to tests or drop out, people can be swayed easily. Just look at the people at the Capitol riot. These people are not smart and thoughtful, you can tell by their incoherent ramblings. They have been incited by their environment. Yes they chose to go to DC and they deserve to be punished for it, but I can sympathize with what brought them to this place. The problem is Republicans are so bad at dealing with those issues, because they require broad-based governmental programs since private enterprise has abandoned those communities. My optimistic hope is that with a few years of widespread governance by the Democratic party, we may see some wide-reaching assistance reach these people. Get education reformed, get police reformed. Teach these people that hating black people actually causes their own outcomes to get worse. Support their businesses that they have had to scrape together. Pass widespread healthcare reform so healthcare is accessible to all, not just the rich. Build up people, don't tear them down. And, most importantly in the short term, vaccinate the whole country to get past this COVID-19 pandemic so the economy can get back to full strength. I think once that happens, and the Trumpers have some time to grieve from the loss of their former leader, these people will come back to the fold and see that hate isn't a useful method of getting what they need.
  - jpttsn 6y ago
    Thanks for sharing. I gather your optimistic view is founded in sort of taking election promises at face value. I’ve always thought they are more like things politician say to seem cool, so my pessimism builds from assuming they won’t come to fruition.
    - Tokkemon 6y ago
      Understandable. I put my trust in activists who do it for the cause. When government and activists actually work together instead of in opposition, great things can happen. We've seen it in New York and we can see it nationwide.
  - secondcoming 6y ago
    > My optimistic hope is that with a few years of widespread governance by the Democratic party, we may see some wide-reaching assistance reach these people. Get education reformed, get police reformed. Aren't there areas in the US that have been governed by Democrats continuously for decades, yet also don't have the programs you list above?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Tokkemon 6y ago
      I don't know any area that's continuously controlled by Democrats except for maybe certain municipalities. Even New York had a Republican Mayor and Governor for many years in the 2000s.
      - refurb 6y ago
        San Francisco hasn't had a Republican in office since the 60's.
      - foolinaround 6y ago
        take a look at the top X cities in the US, and see which party is running them. Then, see how long they were there... then see if the data supports your assertion.
- bseidensticker 6y ago
  Different poster, but I share the same hope. Most people won't put their life on the line for the revolution if their life is sufficiently comfy. Revolutions only happen when people have no other choice. When it's revolt or die, you revolt. When it's revolt or watch netflix, most people watch netflix. We'll see if it's different this time, but I bet this time will end up like all the other times it has felt like "the end of civilized society". Society just keeps putting along.
  - jpttsn 6y ago
    Thanks for sharing. Some thoughts/rebuttals: - what if “society just keeps putting along” only until it stops? I heard somewhere that complex empires historically have a life expectancy of ca. 300 years. - I also heard somewhere that the Arab Srping revolutions took off in full only when the panicked government shut down social media. True or not, it’s an insteresting “what if”. The “panem et circenses” government should maybe think twice about turning off Twitter (in practice) for these subjects, no? - life looks to be getting less comfy, with COVID. A year ago I would feel more at home in the comfy prosperity argument but today that rings hollow
    - bseidensticker 6y ago
      > - what if “society just keeps putting along” only until it stops? I heard somewhere that complex empires historically have a life expectancy of ca. 300 years. Yup, that's the worry. > - I also heard somewhere that the Arab Srping revolutions took off in full only when the panicked government shut down social media. True or not, it’s an insteresting “what if”. The “panem et circenses” government should maybe think twice about turning off Twitter (in practice) for these subjects, no? I had not heard that. I think it's a bit unfair to compare people being oppressed by an actual dictator in a relatively poor country to people who live in one of the richest countries in the world. All these people had the means to pay for transport across this massive country and pay for lodging. If you're really struggling can you afford to buy a round trip plane ticket and a hotel? Also Twitter hasn't been turned off for the people, just for the leaders and presumably instigators. They're still all gonna be able to freely talk shit about Biden and libtards, they just won't be getting orders from the top. > - life looks to be getting less comfy, with COVID. A year ago I would feel more at home in the comfy prosperity argument but today that rings hollow True, COVID has caused a decrease in the QOL. But on a macro level, there is still enough food, shelter, healthcare, and Call of duty to go around. I think it's enough to keep a large chunk of the population from seriously considering taking up arms. Much of my opinions on this topic come from this video, I highly recommend it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs.
- jariel 6y ago
  It's easy: this is a Trump phenom, and not an ideological or cultural phenom, mostly. Trump has no ideology, he used Twitter, FB and mass media to lie to the masses, and a certain group believed him. Once he has less power, he'll have less influence. FoxNews commenters became rabidly in favour of he $2K stimulus checks when Trump announced it. It was pretty funny watching thousands of Fox commenters, normally screaming at the hint of 'Socialism' - backing up Trump's $2K checque claims and how 'people are having a hard time these days, they need the money'. It's really sad how they will flip ideologies to be consistent with whatever he says. Once Trump has moved on, then there will be other priorities.
leppr 6y ago
Just a nitpick but not "half of the US population" follows Trump. Not even getting into the fallacy of attributing more than can be to participants of a binary choice dilemma, the American Republic presidential elections are not "1 person 1 vote" like most other democratic Republics.
dmingod666 6y ago
Hahaha, America is never going to treat it's citizens well no matter who you put in as president. The owners will never allow it..

jpttsn 6y ago

I very rarely hear this hope expressed and I struggle to believe it—can you elaborate?

Tokkemon 6y ago
I don't doubt that so many people on the right are hurting. Their constant accusations of being called the "fly-over states" is totally true. There is endless rural decay, industry is gone. When life is difficult like that, it is very easy to pine for a time gone past when things were better. But now it's gotten so bad that people are desperate. COVID-19 has made it much worse, and people don't want to follow restrictions as it could be an existential threat. So they try and latch on to the one guy that is rich, because they are not; the one guy that talks straight, tells them what they want to hear. And they fall for him, and pledge their support. Combine that with a severely underfunded education system where people don't think critically and just think to tests or drop out, people can be swayed easily. Just look at the people at the Capitol riot. These people are not smart and thoughtful, you can tell by their incoherent ramblings. They have been incited by their environment. Yes they chose to go to DC and they deserve to be punished for it, but I can sympathize with what brought them to this place. The problem is Republicans are so bad at dealing with those issues, because they require broad-based governmental programs since private enterprise has abandoned those communities. My optimistic hope is that with a few years of widespread governance by the Democratic party, we may see some wide-reaching assistance reach these people. Get education reformed, get police reformed. Teach these people that hating black people actually causes their own outcomes to get worse. Support their businesses that they have had to scrape together. Pass widespread healthcare reform so healthcare is accessible to all, not just the rich. Build up people, don't tear them down. And, most importantly in the short term, vaccinate the whole country to get past this COVID-19 pandemic so the economy can get back to full strength. I think once that happens, and the Trumpers have some time to grieve from the loss of their former leader, these people will come back to the fold and see that hate isn't a useful method of getting what they need.
- jpttsn 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I gather your optimistic view is founded in sort of taking election promises at face value. I’ve always thought they are more like things politician say to seem cool, so my pessimism builds from assuming they won’t come to fruition.
  - Tokkemon 6y ago
    Understandable. I put my trust in activists who do it for the cause. When government and activists actually work together instead of in opposition, great things can happen. We've seen it in New York and we can see it nationwide.
- secondcoming 6y ago
  > My optimistic hope is that with a few years of widespread governance by the Democratic party, we may see some wide-reaching assistance reach these people. Get education reformed, get police reformed. Aren't there areas in the US that have been governed by Democrats continuously for decades, yet also don't have the programs you list above?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Tokkemon 6y ago
    I don't know any area that's continuously controlled by Democrats except for maybe certain municipalities. Even New York had a Republican Mayor and Governor for many years in the 2000s.
    - refurb 6y ago
      San Francisco hasn't had a Republican in office since the 60's.
    - foolinaround 6y ago
      take a look at the top X cities in the US, and see which party is running them. Then, see how long they were there... then see if the data supports your assertion.
bseidensticker 6y ago
Different poster, but I share the same hope. Most people won't put their life on the line for the revolution if their life is sufficiently comfy. Revolutions only happen when people have no other choice. When it's revolt or die, you revolt. When it's revolt or watch netflix, most people watch netflix. We'll see if it's different this time, but I bet this time will end up like all the other times it has felt like "the end of civilized society". Society just keeps putting along.
- jpttsn 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing. Some thoughts/rebuttals: - what if “society just keeps putting along” only until it stops? I heard somewhere that complex empires historically have a life expectancy of ca. 300 years. - I also heard somewhere that the Arab Srping revolutions took off in full only when the panicked government shut down social media. True or not, it’s an insteresting “what if”. The “panem et circenses” government should maybe think twice about turning off Twitter (in practice) for these subjects, no? - life looks to be getting less comfy, with COVID. A year ago I would feel more at home in the comfy prosperity argument but today that rings hollow
  - bseidensticker 6y ago
    > - what if “society just keeps putting along” only until it stops? I heard somewhere that complex empires historically have a life expectancy of ca. 300 years. Yup, that's the worry. > - I also heard somewhere that the Arab Srping revolutions took off in full only when the panicked government shut down social media. True or not, it’s an insteresting “what if”. The “panem et circenses” government should maybe think twice about turning off Twitter (in practice) for these subjects, no? I had not heard that. I think it's a bit unfair to compare people being oppressed by an actual dictator in a relatively poor country to people who live in one of the richest countries in the world. All these people had the means to pay for transport across this massive country and pay for lodging. If you're really struggling can you afford to buy a round trip plane ticket and a hotel? Also Twitter hasn't been turned off for the people, just for the leaders and presumably instigators. They're still all gonna be able to freely talk shit about Biden and libtards, they just won't be getting orders from the top. > - life looks to be getting less comfy, with COVID. A year ago I would feel more at home in the comfy prosperity argument but today that rings hollow True, COVID has caused a decrease in the QOL. But on a macro level, there is still enough food, shelter, healthcare, and Call of duty to go around. I think it's enough to keep a large chunk of the population from seriously considering taking up arms. Much of my opinions on this topic come from this video, I highly recommend it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs.
jariel 6y ago
It's easy: this is a Trump phenom, and not an ideological or cultural phenom, mostly. Trump has no ideology, he used Twitter, FB and mass media to lie to the masses, and a certain group believed him. Once he has less power, he'll have less influence. FoxNews commenters became rabidly in favour of he $2K stimulus checks when Trump announced it. It was pretty funny watching thousands of Fox commenters, normally screaming at the hint of 'Socialism' - backing up Trump's $2K checque claims and how 'people are having a hard time these days, they need the money'. It's really sad how they will flip ideologies to be consistent with whatever he says. Once Trump has moved on, then there will be other priorities.

leppr 6y ago

Just a nitpick but not "half of the US population" follows Trump. Not even getting into the fallacy of attributing more than can be to participants of a binary choice dilemma, the American Republic presidential elections are not "1 person 1 vote" like most other democratic Republics.

dmingod666 6y ago

Hahaha, America is never going to treat it's citizens well no matter who you put in as president. The owners will never allow it..