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The argument would work the same way if reality was the same, sure. I'd think there was a very severe problem if there was someone going around broadcasting mes

The argument would work the same way if reality was the same, sure. I'd think there was a very severe problem if there was someone going around broadcasting messages that thousands of people interpreted as orders to terminate fetuses. But that's not what's happening, so the same argument doesn't apply. No doctor believes they're on a a holy mission to end pregnancies. No one is looking for a leader to reinforce this viewpoint. That's very different from the reality in this situation.

lr4444lr 6y ago
That's very much what's happening. The latest year for which I can find easy data (2018)[0] shows that over 600,000 legal abortions took place. That is aided and abetted by messaging that the primary concern is an expectant mother's choice to terminate or not, and the feticide is often deliberately obfuscated by concerns about general obstetric health, even though very few pregnancies pose a significant health risk that would require termination. Now don't get me wrong, I'm pro-choice, but we should be honest about what's going on here. Even pro-choice advocates always talk about it "not being an easy decision" for most women, so there is definitely a lot of persuasion at work, both in direct consultation and in broader messages spread by leaders, advocacy groups, and the like. It doesn't change the reality of feticide, which depending on your ethics, can be considered a wicked act. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/ss/ss6907a1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/ss/ss6907a1.htm
- chowells 6y ago
  Ok, I read the data and... I don't see anywhere where someone is broadcasting messages that some people have been conditioned to believe are orders to terminate pregnancies. Where is that happening? And "not an easy choice" is exactly my point. Are you under the impression doctors council in favor of terminating pregnancies outside of cases where there is a health risk to the woman? I've seen a few claims of that from anti-abortion activists, but I've never seen anything resembling proof of those claims. Given how strong such proof would be in support of their argument, I would be surprised if there is any pattern of such behavior. (Yes, I'm aware they have some videos they claim are exactly this, but given that the only videos they release are highly edited, I'm rather suspicious that those edits removed a lot of important information. An unambiguous problem wouldn't need a lot of editing.) Doctors will provide abortions to the people who choose to get them. I don't see any evidence that there are people who believe they are being instructed to have or perform abortions. I see quite a lot of very strong evidence people are being told the election results are invalid, insurrection is necessary to right an injustice, and that there are people who believe they are being called upon to carry out that insurrection. My source? The claims the president has made repeatedly and the insurrection attempt on Wednesday. These things are different. One is very obvious to everyone with their eyes open. The other one still lacks evidence. When the important part of the situation is the link between an action and its effect on others, the ease in observing that connection is the context. So no. The same argument doesn't work. The pattern of facts is quite different.

lr4444lr 6y ago

That's very much what's happening. The latest year for which I can find easy data (2018)[0] shows that over 600,000 legal abortions took place. That is aided and abetted by messaging that the primary concern is an expectant mother's choice to terminate or not, and the feticide is often deliberately obfuscated by concerns about general obstetric health, even though very few pregnancies pose a significant health risk that would require termination. Now don't get me wrong, I'm pro-choice, but we should be honest about what's going on here. Even pro-choice advocates always talk about it "not being an easy decision" for most women, so there is definitely a lot of persuasion at work, both in direct consultation and in broader messages spread by leaders, advocacy groups, and the like. It doesn't change the reality of feticide, which depending on your ethics, can be considered a wicked act. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/ss/ss6907a1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/ss/ss6907a1.htm

chowells 6y ago
Ok, I read the data and... I don't see anywhere where someone is broadcasting messages that some people have been conditioned to believe are orders to terminate pregnancies. Where is that happening? And "not an easy choice" is exactly my point. Are you under the impression doctors council in favor of terminating pregnancies outside of cases where there is a health risk to the woman? I've seen a few claims of that from anti-abortion activists, but I've never seen anything resembling proof of those claims. Given how strong such proof would be in support of their argument, I would be surprised if there is any pattern of such behavior. (Yes, I'm aware they have some videos they claim are exactly this, but given that the only videos they release are highly edited, I'm rather suspicious that those edits removed a lot of important information. An unambiguous problem wouldn't need a lot of editing.) Doctors will provide abortions to the people who choose to get them. I don't see any evidence that there are people who believe they are being instructed to have or perform abortions. I see quite a lot of very strong evidence people are being told the election results are invalid, insurrection is necessary to right an injustice, and that there are people who believe they are being called upon to carry out that insurrection. My source? The claims the president has made repeatedly and the insurrection attempt on Wednesday. These things are different. One is very obvious to everyone with their eyes open. The other one still lacks evidence. When the important part of the situation is the link between an action and its effect on others, the ease in observing that connection is the context. So no. The same argument doesn't work. The pattern of facts is quite different.