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You say this like its the first time Americans have had to learn to live with having lost a federal election. Half the country is disappointed every four years.

by TT3351 6y ago

You say this like its the first time Americans have had to learn to live with having lost a federal election. Half the country is disappointed every four years. Starting to make concessions to terrorists because they got really upset after being lied to repeatedly makes no sense.

that_guy_iain 6y ago
There is a difference between disappointed and storming a goverment building to stop the offical event required to make it offical. That difference is a lot of anger. Honestly, I don't think America has seen this before. Not even with the war of independence, that was kind of difference since it was about not getting a vote and not that the vote didn't matter.
- TT3351 6y ago
  What are you suggesting by "the vote didn't matter?" Just because they might believe Trump's lies about the most recent election doesn't mean their emotions are justified.
  - that_guy_iain 6y ago
    > What are you suggesting by "the vote didn't matter?" Just because they might believe Trump's lies about the most recent election doesn't mean their emotions are justified. I believe, they believe the election was rigged. Justified or not, it doesn't stop them from doing stuff.
    - TT3351 6y ago
      Isn't the remedy to that to show them less of the guy who's been lying to them? How will allowing him to continue lying and myth building avoid further violence?
      - 1MachineElf 6y ago
        You could also have investigated voter fraud. You know, the whole reason why they came there to protest in the first place. That's an option. You will likely dismiss it because you've been told that there is no voter fraud, but dismissing something doesn't actually address it. Nothing about the objections brought up when states like Pennsylvania were being reviewed was actually addressed by the so-called winning side.
        TT3351 6y ago
        I wonder why Kris Kobach keeps coming home empty handed from his fishing trips
        tqi 6y ago
        1) Why would it be necessary to investigate where there has been no evidence to show that an investigation is even warranted? Where does the line get drawn? 2) Even if they did investigate it clearly wouldn't work. These conspiracies are self sealing - lack of proof is itself proof. If you're capable of rigging an entire election, then of course you will be able to do it without leaving any evidence.
        esoterica 6y ago
        There is nothing to investigate. Did you read any of the affidavits filed with the so-called "fraud" lawsuits? There were election observers complaining that they saw lots of military ballots for Biden, which is proof of fraud because they "knew" military members were "supposed" to vote for Trump. There was another observer who complained that he saw an Asian person working the polls, which was proof that the CCP had infiltrated the elections. The lawsuits were just hundreds and hundreds of pages of conspiratorial nonsense like that. The lawyers filing these things are QAnon cultists. How do you "investigate" allegations like that? If you've really fallen for this scam then you have been thoroughly brainwashed by the far right internet.
        1MachineElf 6y ago
        Everyone came forward with whatever they thought was suspicious, but we're at the point now where things that even sound like "voter fraud claim" are automatically dismissed. Take for example, this: https://mapthefraud.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/DATASCIENC/pages/64258049/Large+Discrepancies+between+Qualified+Voter+File+AV+Module+and+2020+Election+Results+in+Wayne+County+Michigan+-+Potentially+Disqualifying+Approximately+204+000+Absentee+Votes https://mapthefraud.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/DATASCIENC/pag.... If the thousands of votes here were fraudulent, the quantity is sufficiently high to assume that some organization is trying to interfere with the election. If there is an organization capable of creating thousands of fraudulent votes in this instance, then what instances are we unaware of that the same organization is also involved with. I'm not asking for a 2-year investigation based on allegations of a pee pee video recorded in a Russian hotel, I'm just asking for: "Republicans opposing Wednesday's electoral count have one proposal to deal with the controversy — that Congress delay action for 10 days so an "emergency" electoral commission can audit the results and investigate voter fraud claims in the contested states." https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tally-live-updates/2021/01/06/954014749/citing-history-sen-cruz-wants-a-panel-to-probe-elections https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tall...
- tacon 6y ago
  The people that lived through the American Revolution would strongly disagree with you that the current situation is worse.
  - that_guy_iain 6y ago
    I didn't say it was worse or better, just that it's not the same.
- greedo 6y ago
  There was a little matter of the Civil War that might deserve some of your attention.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  > I don't think America has seen this before I think that says more about how boring & peaceful the late twentieth century was. The number of people old enough to remember more interesting times is declining quickly.
  - TT3351 6y ago
    As a sidenote, this is probably why our Covid response has been so awful. We have no real living memory of a collective calamity.
- azernik 6y ago
  Half of the Union literally seceded because it didn't like the winner of the 1860 presidential election.
  - michaericalribo 6y ago
    That...is a pretty revisionist take on the civil war. More popular is the opinion that the south wanted to perpetuate chattel slavery for economic gain, masquerading beneath ‘states rights’. I mean, damn, there’s a reason Buchanan is said to have caused the war—and it’s not that he just happened to have been president before Lincoln.
    - azernik 6y ago
      I didn't mean to imply slavery wasn't the motivator - but the trigger was the election of a (moderate-ish) anti-slavery president from an anti-slavery party, who explicitly called for the end of admitting new slave states to the Union. Secessions all happened between Lincoln's election and his inauguration, and the declarations of causes almost all cited Lincoln's election as proof of Northern anti-slavery intent. Similarly, the refusal to accept Trump's loss is rooted in deep gulfs on identity and to a lesser extent on issues. I don't think you can separate the end-of-the-world paranoia from attitudes on BLM, for example.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
listless 6y ago
All the rally goers are not terrorists anymore than everyone who was at a BLM protest is Antifa. We’ve got to be very careful here not to paint all of MAGA with that brush because that ends in a dark, dark place.
- arminiusreturns 6y ago
  The oligarchs are laughing in the background as the divide and conquer strategy is working quite well. So many servile people ready to give up liberties here because they want to punish the other, refusing to understand the implications of how such systems will be turned on them some point in the future.
- michaericalribo 6y ago
  All? No. But some? Hell yes! Even when ‘leftists’ protest at congress, they go through metal detectors and demonstrate peacefully—no window smashing, no theft, no overrunning security lines. Trumpists on Wednesday literally hung nooses from trees and killed a cop.
  - casefields 6y ago
    Wisconsin says hi! Also not like 5 congressmen were shot of anything: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_United_States_Capitol_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_United_States_Capitol_sho...
read_if_gay_ 6y ago
The issue is the right feels underrepresented in the MSM, so they move on to alternative media which are echo chambers, which leads to things like these riots, and the response from the left creates further segregation and more echo chambers. Both sides remain confident they are completely, 100% in the right, because each is living in their own universe. This feedback loop has been going on for a while now and right now it's just going crazy.
- Rapzid 6y ago
  > which are echo chambers I mean, let's be honest here. There is a lot of good journalism in MSM; just about everything reported on from leaks and "anonymous" sources leading up to the Mueller report was later confirmed in the report or by first-hand witnesses(the matter-of-fact stuff, not necessarily the conclusions). Buutttt... CNN still has their "outrage" segments and echo chambers..
  - wu_tang_chris 6y ago
    You’re almost close at the end there. The echo chamber of the MSM is worse because it has an air of legitimacy afforded by a history of journalism that doesn’t exist anymore. Once great institutions like NYT and NPR are scant more than propaganda arms for the left’s authoritarian communist regime. And you guys don’t realize you’re part of the echo. IMO the left is no different from us, we’re all trying to navigate this strange post truth world. Neither accepts that it’s not just the other side distorting reality; both are oblivious to their own distortion.
    - Rapzid 6y ago
      > the left’s authoritarian communist regime > you guys don’t realize you’re part of the echo > we’re all trying to navigate this strange post truth world I see what you did there, do you?
      - wu_tang_chris 6y ago
        Hopefully you see what you did there as well. Makes sense to me in the context of an assault on speech. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

by TT3351 6y ago

that_guy_iain 6y ago

There is a difference between disappointed and storming a goverment building to stop the offical event required to make it offical. That difference is a lot of anger. Honestly, I don't think America has seen this before. Not even with the war of independence, that was kind of difference since it was about not getting a vote and not that the vote didn't matter.

TT3351 6y ago
What are you suggesting by "the vote didn't matter?" Just because they might believe Trump's lies about the most recent election doesn't mean their emotions are justified.
- that_guy_iain 6y ago
  > What are you suggesting by "the vote didn't matter?" Just because they might believe Trump's lies about the most recent election doesn't mean their emotions are justified. I believe, they believe the election was rigged. Justified or not, it doesn't stop them from doing stuff.
  - TT3351 6y ago
    Isn't the remedy to that to show them less of the guy who's been lying to them? How will allowing him to continue lying and myth building avoid further violence?
    - 1MachineElf 6y ago
      You could also have investigated voter fraud. You know, the whole reason why they came there to protest in the first place. That's an option. You will likely dismiss it because you've been told that there is no voter fraud, but dismissing something doesn't actually address it. Nothing about the objections brought up when states like Pennsylvania were being reviewed was actually addressed by the so-called winning side.
      - TT3351 6y ago
        I wonder why Kris Kobach keeps coming home empty handed from his fishing trips
      - tqi 6y ago
        1) Why would it be necessary to investigate where there has been no evidence to show that an investigation is even warranted? Where does the line get drawn? 2) Even if they did investigate it clearly wouldn't work. These conspiracies are self sealing - lack of proof is itself proof. If you're capable of rigging an entire election, then of course you will be able to do it without leaving any evidence.
      - esoterica 6y ago
        There is nothing to investigate. Did you read any of the affidavits filed with the so-called "fraud" lawsuits? There were election observers complaining that they saw lots of military ballots for Biden, which is proof of fraud because they "knew" military members were "supposed" to vote for Trump. There was another observer who complained that he saw an Asian person working the polls, which was proof that the CCP had infiltrated the elections. The lawsuits were just hundreds and hundreds of pages of conspiratorial nonsense like that. The lawyers filing these things are QAnon cultists. How do you "investigate" allegations like that? If you've really fallen for this scam then you have been thoroughly brainwashed by the far right internet.
        1MachineElf 6y ago
        Everyone came forward with whatever they thought was suspicious, but we're at the point now where things that even sound like "voter fraud claim" are automatically dismissed. Take for example, this: https://mapthefraud.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/DATASCIENC/pages/64258049/Large+Discrepancies+between+Qualified+Voter+File+AV+Module+and+2020+Election+Results+in+Wayne+County+Michigan+-+Potentially+Disqualifying+Approximately+204+000+Absentee+Votes https://mapthefraud.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/DATASCIENC/pag.... If the thousands of votes here were fraudulent, the quantity is sufficiently high to assume that some organization is trying to interfere with the election. If there is an organization capable of creating thousands of fraudulent votes in this instance, then what instances are we unaware of that the same organization is also involved with. I'm not asking for a 2-year investigation based on allegations of a pee pee video recorded in a Russian hotel, I'm just asking for: "Republicans opposing Wednesday's electoral count have one proposal to deal with the controversy — that Congress delay action for 10 days so an "emergency" electoral commission can audit the results and investigate voter fraud claims in the contested states." https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tally-live-updates/2021/01/06/954014749/citing-history-sen-cruz-wants-a-panel-to-probe-elections https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tall...
tacon 6y ago
The people that lived through the American Revolution would strongly disagree with you that the current situation is worse.
- that_guy_iain 6y ago
  I didn't say it was worse or better, just that it's not the same.
greedo 6y ago
There was a little matter of the Civil War that might deserve some of your attention.
rootusrootus 6y ago
> I don't think America has seen this before I think that says more about how boring & peaceful the late twentieth century was. The number of people old enough to remember more interesting times is declining quickly.
- TT3351 6y ago
  As a sidenote, this is probably why our Covid response has been so awful. We have no real living memory of a collective calamity.
azernik 6y ago
Half of the Union literally seceded because it didn't like the winner of the 1860 presidential election.
- michaericalribo 6y ago
  That...is a pretty revisionist take on the civil war. More popular is the opinion that the south wanted to perpetuate chattel slavery for economic gain, masquerading beneath ‘states rights’. I mean, damn, there’s a reason Buchanan is said to have caused the war—and it’s not that he just happened to have been president before Lincoln.
  - azernik 6y ago
    I didn't mean to imply slavery wasn't the motivator - but the trigger was the election of a (moderate-ish) anti-slavery president from an anti-slavery party, who explicitly called for the end of admitting new slave states to the Union. Secessions all happened between Lincoln's election and his inauguration, and the declarations of causes almost all cited Lincoln's election as proof of Northern anti-slavery intent. Similarly, the refusal to accept Trump's loss is rooted in deep gulfs on identity and to a lesser extent on issues. I don't think you can separate the end-of-the-world paranoia from attitudes on BLM, for example.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

listless 6y ago

All the rally goers are not terrorists anymore than everyone who was at a BLM protest is Antifa. We’ve got to be very careful here not to paint all of MAGA with that brush because that ends in a dark, dark place.

arminiusreturns 6y ago
The oligarchs are laughing in the background as the divide and conquer strategy is working quite well. So many servile people ready to give up liberties here because they want to punish the other, refusing to understand the implications of how such systems will be turned on them some point in the future.
michaericalribo 6y ago
All? No. But some? Hell yes! Even when ‘leftists’ protest at congress, they go through metal detectors and demonstrate peacefully—no window smashing, no theft, no overrunning security lines. Trumpists on Wednesday literally hung nooses from trees and killed a cop.
- casefields 6y ago
  Wisconsin says hi! Also not like 5 congressmen were shot of anything: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_United_States_Capitol_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_United_States_Capitol_sho...

read_if_gay_ 6y ago

The issue is the right feels underrepresented in the MSM, so they move on to alternative media which are echo chambers, which leads to things like these riots, and the response from the left creates further segregation and more echo chambers. Both sides remain confident they are completely, 100% in the right, because each is living in their own universe. This feedback loop has been going on for a while now and right now it's just going crazy.

Rapzid 6y ago
> which are echo chambers I mean, let's be honest here. There is a lot of good journalism in MSM; just about everything reported on from leaks and "anonymous" sources leading up to the Mueller report was later confirmed in the report or by first-hand witnesses(the matter-of-fact stuff, not necessarily the conclusions). Buutttt... CNN still has their "outrage" segments and echo chambers..
- wu_tang_chris 6y ago
  You’re almost close at the end there. The echo chamber of the MSM is worse because it has an air of legitimacy afforded by a history of journalism that doesn’t exist anymore. Once great institutions like NYT and NPR are scant more than propaganda arms for the left’s authoritarian communist regime. And you guys don’t realize you’re part of the echo. IMO the left is no different from us, we’re all trying to navigate this strange post truth world. Neither accepts that it’s not just the other side distorting reality; both are oblivious to their own distortion.
  - Rapzid 6y ago
    > the left’s authoritarian communist regime > you guys don’t realize you’re part of the echo > we’re all trying to navigate this strange post truth world I see what you did there, do you?
    - wu_tang_chris 6y ago
      Hopefully you see what you did there as well. Makes sense to me in the context of an assault on speech. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯