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This has been an embarrassing incident to those in power because it made them look weak. But calling a populist movement with millions of supporters, terrorists

This has been an embarrassing incident to those in power because it made them look weak. But calling a populist movement with millions of supporters, terrorists is very short sighted. It will only accelerate the fire. The left soon will control all three branches of government, after an election that many people question, has been simultaneously advocating for censorship of its political adversaries, more draconian civil rights removals under the guise of COVID. The inevitably resulting destruction of more people's livelihoods will create more desperate people. I hope you realize where this is all going. Because its obvious more people will be revolting if this continues, and will organize to resist. Censorship and oppression is not the answer. Letting people voice their grievances, is the last peaceful outlet before actual violence.

TT3351 6y ago
What part of attempting to block a Constitutionally mandated process through the use of force is not a terrorist act?
- SpaceRaccoon 6y ago
  It seems like a criminal act. But didn't BLM demonstrate that political violence is effective at achieving your political goals? Or is it justified when it's your side committing the terrorism?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    Remind me again of which political goals associated with BLM have been achieved.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - no-s 6y ago
      >>political goals associated with BLM have been achieved. Perhaps financing the successful Democrat campaign by laundering BLM donations through the ActBlue portal? I don't think all the reports for the last election cycle are in yet. If not that, at least capturing data about progressive donators who could be solicited for contributions...?
- rufus_foreman 6y ago
  Brittanica: "Terrorism, the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective" Not seeing it. They were going to bring about a general climate of fear in the population to prevent something that was happening that day?
  - mantap 6y ago
    Do you really think that if they had had brown skin instead of white we would be having this conversation at all?
  - ghayes 6y ago
    A good bar might be the definition of terrorism in the United States, which includes: > ... acts dangerous to human life ... [intending] ... to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion ... [0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2331 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2331
    - rufus_foreman 6y ago
      Here's the full definition that you cherry picked from: (1) the term “international terrorism” means activities that— (A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and (C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum; So, under that criminal code that you quoted, were the actions on Capitol Hill international terrorism?
- ng12 6y ago
  What's the line between a protest and terrorism? As far as I can tell based on the 24 hour news cycle it's whether you personally agree with the protestors/terrorists.
  - TT3351 6y ago
    Showing up to the Capitol with zipties, presumably to take elected officials hostage, qualifies as terrorism. Eyewitnesses reported specific threats made against the Vice President, and some carried nooses with them into the building.
    - ng12 6y ago
      And these are exactly the sorts of things right-wing media focused on about the BLM protests, hence my comment.
      - TT3351 6y ago
        Please share links of similar activities by any BLM protestors anywhere in the nation. You are constructing a false equivalency.
        zaroth 6y ago
        Seattle City Hall https://youtu.be/aA1GHvHzy8M https://youtu.be/aA1GHvHzy8M
        TT3351 6y ago
        They seem to be occupying areas open to the public, and not during a Constitutionally mandated transfer of power. Not close to equivalent, as far as that video goes.
        zaroth 6y ago
        You asked for something similar. Obviously there is nothing that you will admit is equivalent.
0x1F8B 6y ago
I agree with you. I think there is something wrong with the way we are reacting to these people and it's ratcheting up every day. I personally think they are deplorable and retrograde and, above all, willfully ignorant. But there is something wrong with this entire system and the path forward feels as untenable as the path we've been on. There has to be a detente, but I would never suggest that amongst my orbit of people. The language of the moment is so loaded, I'd probably be called a bootlicker. At the same time I had friends calling for the gunning down of these people as they overran the Capitol. It's very hard to reconcile all of this turmoil.
- busterarm 6y ago
  You have two sides in ideological conflict that are fundamentally unwilling to let the other deescalate. With neither being allowed to back down, either conflict or subjugation at a national scale are inevitable. I feel that we have a very short window left to rectify this sentiment lest we be in a completely failed state. Sadly becaue of COVID, it's very difficult to move countries at the moment. I do not plan on sticking around to see what happens though.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  Had we known each other, I'd have been one of those friends who might have said "gun them all down". But ... to whatever extent I really meant that (and I really don't know what that extent is, though I do know that the sight of the confederate flag inside the US Capitol made my blood boil) ... I didn't do that. I didn't order anyone to do that. I didn't encourage anyone to do that. I didn't even go on social media and suggest it. Meanwhile, while I was feeling whatever I was feeling, two pipe bombs were carried into the Capitol building. Windows were smashed, offices ramsacked, and there may (just may for now) have been much more serious intent on the part of some of those who got in (reports about plans to abduct various members of congress, not sufficiently confirmed yet). So please, let's stop with the whataboutisms and the both-sides-do-it nonsense. Yes, there's blame for most things in this country to be distributed across both political parties. But equating some of our angry, privately voiced feelings about a violent attack on the US Capitol with ... a violent attack on the US Capitol ... just seems nonsensical to me.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> The left soon will control all three branches of government ...the supreme court is majority conservative and has 3 trump appointees. Senate and congress are together one branch (the legislative branch).
- zaroth 6y ago
  The court which Democrats have promised to pack?
  - TT3351 6y ago
    Ruled out repeatedly by multiple individuals who would need to sign on. Whoever you heard that from was either misled or trying to mislead you. Biden is one of the staunchest institutionalists in government today.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    Which Democrats? Biden has expressed enormous reluctance to this idea, if not outright opposition, and if it was even close to happening anyway (which is unlikely), it won't happen without his vote.
    - zaroth 6y ago
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/voting-changes/supreme-court-packing/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020... Biden famously has refused to rule it out despite being asked repeatedly since winning the nomination.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
        I can't find any references anywhere to anyone asking him about it since he won the election. Before the nomination, his answers where classically institutionalist. After the nomination, he refused to be specific and said I'll let you know after the election". That doesn't appear to have happened.
samizdis 6y ago
I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion that "calling a populist movement with millions of supporters, terrorists is very short sighted". I do, though, flinch at your use of language when you refer in the second paragraph to "the left", as if it is some rigidly defined thing or set of attitudes. That seems to me like a set-up for binary politics; an us or them thing. My active involvement with political things has always been issue-based, often to do with local affairs - roads, planning, preservation or redevelopment of areas/historic buildings. These things have never been, at local level, "left or right", and I have found such labels, especially when applied before the subjects have been discussed/examined, to be unhelpful. FWIW, I prefer issues to be debated on merit, rather than their labelling broadly as left or right, and this is largely because of experience of such debates at the local level - where it really does matter to people. edited for a typo - correcting "beenn" to "beem". More may follow.
enumjorge 6y ago
> after an election that many people question Many people also think the earth is flat. It doesn’t mean there’s any merit to the claim. Countless election officials, judges and government officials, both left and right-leaning alike have unequivocally stated that there was no fraud. This group includes Trump’s own attorney general. Biden was elected democratically. I don’t know if you saw coverage of what happened yesterday, but it already got violent. These people went beyond “voicing their grievances” and broke the law. And I don’t see anyone calling everyone who voted for Trump a terrorist. They’re calling those who broke into the Capitol in order to use fear to change the results of an election, terrorists. The fact that you’re equating Trump voters with that mob is on you.
newguy1234 6y ago
100% this. People here fail to realize that there was some nutter on Christmas who suicide bombed himself over 5g conspiracy theories. Where was the FBI to stop this guy? No one where to be found. I hate to be the one to say this but political motivated violence will be on the rise sharply.
- dillondoyle 6y ago
  ?? are you trying to equate the preparedness of law enforcement to prevent in advance a single mentally ill person's non-publicized surprise attack to the very publicized and clearly anticipated actions of thousands who widely published their intent in advanced? I'm with you on likely more violence, yeah I also think probably from those considered 'left' tooe but the better comparison between both events is that they both involve insane conspiracy theories bought into by a very specific slice of mostly white, mostly male, mostly MAGA and Q folks.
stefantalpalaru 6y ago
> Letting people voice their grievances, is the last peaceful outlet before actual violence. Tell that to Ian Murdock's friends-in-need.
lta 6y ago
If you step out just a tiny bit of of the US political context, you might realize that you can hardly call the democrats "The left". From an European perspective, you have the extreme right, and the right. I think this statement might be true from a South American perspective as well and likely from others.
watwut 6y ago
> Censorship and oppression is not the answer Trying to overturn election is oppression. Literally, there is nothing more authoritarian going on right now then that. Donald Trump and other republican politicians spread lies about election in an attempt to overturn election in any way possible. They tried and failed dozens of lawsuits to overturn that election. Trump trying to bully Georgia Officers to find votes for him. And somehow, those lies being spread among their fans and their party proves that ... democrats should not have won the election. Election means that your party can loose. And your party then can try to convince people that they are better party. But you loosing election and then not being able to accept that your party should be ruling everything or that it was rejected by large groups of people does not mean you should get some concessions. Just because you are throwing anti-democratic tempper tamptrum does not mean you have entitlement. > But calling a populist movement with millions of supporters, terrorists is very short sighted. It will only accelerate the fire. Whether they are terrorist depends on what tactic they use. Not on how many supporters they have.

TT3351 6y ago

What part of attempting to block a Constitutionally mandated process through the use of force is not a terrorist act?

SpaceRaccoon 6y ago
It seems like a criminal act. But didn't BLM demonstrate that political violence is effective at achieving your political goals? Or is it justified when it's your side committing the terrorism?
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  Remind me again of which political goals associated with BLM have been achieved.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - no-s 6y ago
    >>political goals associated with BLM have been achieved. Perhaps financing the successful Democrat campaign by laundering BLM donations through the ActBlue portal? I don't think all the reports for the last election cycle are in yet. If not that, at least capturing data about progressive donators who could be solicited for contributions...?
rufus_foreman 6y ago
Brittanica: "Terrorism, the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective" Not seeing it. They were going to bring about a general climate of fear in the population to prevent something that was happening that day?
- mantap 6y ago
  Do you really think that if they had had brown skin instead of white we would be having this conversation at all?
- ghayes 6y ago
  A good bar might be the definition of terrorism in the United States, which includes: > ... acts dangerous to human life ... [intending] ... to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion ... [0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2331 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2331
  - rufus_foreman 6y ago
    Here's the full definition that you cherry picked from: (1) the term “international terrorism” means activities that— (A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and (C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum; So, under that criminal code that you quoted, were the actions on Capitol Hill international terrorism?
ng12 6y ago
What's the line between a protest and terrorism? As far as I can tell based on the 24 hour news cycle it's whether you personally agree with the protestors/terrorists.
- TT3351 6y ago
  Showing up to the Capitol with zipties, presumably to take elected officials hostage, qualifies as terrorism. Eyewitnesses reported specific threats made against the Vice President, and some carried nooses with them into the building.
  - ng12 6y ago
    And these are exactly the sorts of things right-wing media focused on about the BLM protests, hence my comment.
    - TT3351 6y ago
      Please share links of similar activities by any BLM protestors anywhere in the nation. You are constructing a false equivalency.
      - zaroth 6y ago
        Seattle City Hall https://youtu.be/aA1GHvHzy8M https://youtu.be/aA1GHvHzy8M
        TT3351 6y ago
        They seem to be occupying areas open to the public, and not during a Constitutionally mandated transfer of power. Not close to equivalent, as far as that video goes.
        zaroth 6y ago
        You asked for something similar. Obviously there is nothing that you will admit is equivalent.

0x1F8B 6y ago

I agree with you. I think there is something wrong with the way we are reacting to these people and it's ratcheting up every day. I personally think they are deplorable and retrograde and, above all, willfully ignorant. But there is something wrong with this entire system and the path forward feels as untenable as the path we've been on. There has to be a detente, but I would never suggest that amongst my orbit of people. The language of the moment is so loaded, I'd probably be called a bootlicker. At the same time I had friends calling for the gunning down of these people as they overran the Capitol. It's very hard to reconcile all of this turmoil.

busterarm 6y ago
You have two sides in ideological conflict that are fundamentally unwilling to let the other deescalate. With neither being allowed to back down, either conflict or subjugation at a national scale are inevitable. I feel that we have a very short window left to rectify this sentiment lest we be in a completely failed state. Sadly becaue of COVID, it's very difficult to move countries at the moment. I do not plan on sticking around to see what happens though.
PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
Had we known each other, I'd have been one of those friends who might have said "gun them all down". But ... to whatever extent I really meant that (and I really don't know what that extent is, though I do know that the sight of the confederate flag inside the US Capitol made my blood boil) ... I didn't do that. I didn't order anyone to do that. I didn't encourage anyone to do that. I didn't even go on social media and suggest it. Meanwhile, while I was feeling whatever I was feeling, two pipe bombs were carried into the Capitol building. Windows were smashed, offices ramsacked, and there may (just may for now) have been much more serious intent on the part of some of those who got in (reports about plans to abduct various members of congress, not sufficiently confirmed yet). So please, let's stop with the whataboutisms and the both-sides-do-it nonsense. Yes, there's blame for most things in this country to be distributed across both political parties. But equating some of our angry, privately voiced feelings about a violent attack on the US Capitol with ... a violent attack on the US Capitol ... just seems nonsensical to me.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

> The left soon will control all three branches of government ...the supreme court is majority conservative and has 3 trump appointees. Senate and congress are together one branch (the legislative branch).

zaroth 6y ago
The court which Democrats have promised to pack?
- TT3351 6y ago
  Ruled out repeatedly by multiple individuals who would need to sign on. Whoever you heard that from was either misled or trying to mislead you. Biden is one of the staunchest institutionalists in government today.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  Which Democrats? Biden has expressed enormous reluctance to this idea, if not outright opposition, and if it was even close to happening anyway (which is unlikely), it won't happen without his vote.
  - zaroth 6y ago
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/voting-changes/supreme-court-packing/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020... Biden famously has refused to rule it out despite being asked repeatedly since winning the nomination.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
      I can't find any references anywhere to anyone asking him about it since he won the election. Before the nomination, his answers where classically institutionalist. After the nomination, he refused to be specific and said I'll let you know after the election". That doesn't appear to have happened.

samizdis 6y ago

I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion that "calling a populist movement with millions of supporters, terrorists is very short sighted". I do, though, flinch at your use of language when you refer in the second paragraph to "the left", as if it is some rigidly defined thing or set of attitudes. That seems to me like a set-up for binary politics; an us or them thing. My active involvement with political things has always been issue-based, often to do with local affairs - roads, planning, preservation or redevelopment of areas/historic buildings. These things have never been, at local level, "left or right", and I have found such labels, especially when applied before the subjects have been discussed/examined, to be unhelpful. FWIW, I prefer issues to be debated on merit, rather than their labelling broadly as left or right, and this is largely because of experience of such debates at the local level - where it really does matter to people. edited for a typo - correcting "beenn" to "beem". More may follow.

enumjorge 6y ago

> after an election that many people question Many people also think the earth is flat. It doesn’t mean there’s any merit to the claim. Countless election officials, judges and government officials, both left and right-leaning alike have unequivocally stated that there was no fraud. This group includes Trump’s own attorney general. Biden was elected democratically. I don’t know if you saw coverage of what happened yesterday, but it already got violent. These people went beyond “voicing their grievances” and broke the law. And I don’t see anyone calling everyone who voted for Trump a terrorist. They’re calling those who broke into the Capitol in order to use fear to change the results of an election, terrorists. The fact that you’re equating Trump voters with that mob is on you.

newguy1234 6y ago

100% this. People here fail to realize that there was some nutter on Christmas who suicide bombed himself over 5g conspiracy theories. Where was the FBI to stop this guy? No one where to be found. I hate to be the one to say this but political motivated violence will be on the rise sharply.

dillondoyle 6y ago
?? are you trying to equate the preparedness of law enforcement to prevent in advance a single mentally ill person's non-publicized surprise attack to the very publicized and clearly anticipated actions of thousands who widely published their intent in advanced? I'm with you on likely more violence, yeah I also think probably from those considered 'left' tooe but the better comparison between both events is that they both involve insane conspiracy theories bought into by a very specific slice of mostly white, mostly male, mostly MAGA and Q folks.

stefantalpalaru 6y ago

> Letting people voice their grievances, is the last peaceful outlet before actual violence. Tell that to Ian Murdock's friends-in-need.

lta 6y ago

If you step out just a tiny bit of of the US political context, you might realize that you can hardly call the democrats "The left". From an European perspective, you have the extreme right, and the right. I think this statement might be true from a South American perspective as well and likely from others.

watwut 6y ago

> Censorship and oppression is not the answer Trying to overturn election is oppression. Literally, there is nothing more authoritarian going on right now then that. Donald Trump and other republican politicians spread lies about election in an attempt to overturn election in any way possible. They tried and failed dozens of lawsuits to overturn that election. Trump trying to bully Georgia Officers to find votes for him. And somehow, those lies being spread among their fans and their party proves that ... democrats should not have won the election. Election means that your party can loose. And your party then can try to convince people that they are better party. But you loosing election and then not being able to accept that your party should be ruling everything or that it was rejected by large groups of people does not mean you should get some concessions. Just because you are throwing anti-democratic tempper tamptrum does not mean you have entitlement. > But calling a populist movement with millions of supporters, terrorists is very short sighted. It will only accelerate the fire. Whether they are terrorist depends on what tactic they use. Not on how many supporters they have.