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74 million voters. This is not going to play out well. There's really no coming back from this moment, the technocratic elite have changed American democracy fo

by shiado 6y ago

74 million voters. This is not going to play out well. There's really no coming back from this moment, the technocratic elite have changed American democracy forever. Edit: I mean this in the way Snowden tweeted yesterday, it will be interesting how this plays out for better or worse, but it is a monumental policy shift that will be a date marked in history books.

cecja 6y ago
It's not 74 million the last time I checked it was 40% of them. Stop spreading FUD, stop inciting violence sit in your troll cave and shut the fuck up.
TeaDrunk 6y ago
American democracy was changed long before this. (see: southern strategy, freeing of slaves, allowing women the vote...)
jupdarter 6y ago
I doubt it’s as big as you say. Watch interviews with normal Trump voters (ie, not the meme-lords and q nuts), and they have expressed a pretty high degree of frustration with his Twitter habit for most of his presidency. Given how long Twitter has put up with the obvious abuse of the latitude they uniquely gave him, a lot of people may be grumpy but will understand. Had they done this years ago and NOT given him such exceptional latitude, then you’d probably have seen much larger blowback.
- JoBrad 6y ago
  Additionally, even those who voted for him likely voted _against_ the other candidate rather than _for_ Pres Trump. His approval ratings have never been high, and are lower at this point in his term than any other recent President except Pres Carter. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/ https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/
- freewilly1040 6y ago
  45% of Republicans support the actions at the capitol https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/01/06/US-capitol-trump-poll https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/20...
TT3351 6y ago
You say this like its the first time Americans have had to learn to live with having lost a federal election. Half the country is disappointed every four years. Starting to make concessions to terrorists because they got really upset after being lied to repeatedly makes no sense.
- that_guy_iain 6y ago
  There is a difference between disappointed and storming a goverment building to stop the offical event required to make it offical. That difference is a lot of anger. Honestly, I don't think America has seen this before. Not even with the war of independence, that was kind of difference since it was about not getting a vote and not that the vote didn't matter.
  - TT3351 6y ago
    What are you suggesting by "the vote didn't matter?" Just because they might believe Trump's lies about the most recent election doesn't mean their emotions are justified.
    - that_guy_iain 6y ago
      > What are you suggesting by "the vote didn't matter?" Just because they might believe Trump's lies about the most recent election doesn't mean their emotions are justified. I believe, they believe the election was rigged. Justified or not, it doesn't stop them from doing stuff.
      - TT3351 6y ago
        Isn't the remedy to that to show them less of the guy who's been lying to them? How will allowing him to continue lying and myth building avoid further violence?
        1MachineElf 6y ago
        You could also have investigated voter fraud. You know, the whole reason why they came there to protest in the first place. That's an option. You will likely dismiss it because you've been told that there is no voter fraud, but dismissing something doesn't actually address it. Nothing about the objections brought up when states like Pennsylvania were being reviewed was actually addressed by the so-called winning side.
chr1 6y ago
Maybe the solution is to use 21st century tools for democracy in 21st century. Issue based open voting, flexible mechanism of vote delegation, and ability to trade votes to reach compromise can fix what social media have broken https://voteflux.org https://voteflux.org
sixothree 6y ago
There have been closer elections in recent history. Why are you giving this particular one such outsized proportion? You didn't see this sort of reaction in 2000, and that was far far closer. And to be clear, this election was 306 to 232. That is considered a landslide in my book (meaning my 40+ years of living). And in percentages, you can see just how poorly Trump performed in this election - 51.4% to 46.9%. 2000 was 47.9% to 48.4% (technically a negative 0.5% difference). So I think your argument is completely disingenuous.
- colonwqbang 6y ago
  > Why are you giving this particular one such outsized proportion? > You didn't see this sort of reaction in 2000 I think you found the reason? When exactly have we seen such a reaction before?
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Maybe you could actually say something, instead of expecting us to guess...
  - timmytokyo 6y ago
    When have we seen the loser's followers violently storm the Capitol to stop the certification of the election's votes? Never in the US.
- physicles 6y ago
  This isn’t about closeness at all. It’s about ~half the country actually believing that the election was rigged. That doesn’t have precedent as far as I know.
  - sixothree 6y ago
    That's too bad. They're wrong. And using violence is not the answer.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    To be fair, the other half of the country believed that the previous election was thrown by Russian interference. And to be really fair, half of the country believed neither of those things. There are plenty of people who voted for Trump who believe that he lost fair and square, and ditto Hillary voters in the previous election.
notional 6y ago
> the technocratic elite have changed American democracy forever You keep blaming tech companies for the poor actions of the adults using it and it doesn't make sense.
enumjorge 6y ago
> the technocratic elite have changed American democracy forever The president has spent weeks trying to delegitimize the results of a democratic election, culminating yesterday by inciting a mob to de-rail the ratifying of the results, but it’s the banning of said president from a social media site that has changed American democracy forever. Right.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
MattGaiser 6y ago
In a book about how the Trump era changed democracy, this would merit a paragraph or two at most.
rmk 6y ago
It appears to me that there is a huge electorate that is disgruntled and has felt that the people in power have ignored it for too long. If such a large number of people have actually vandalized Congress (didn't they do something like this to the Michigan Statehouse) to make their displeasure known, then they must genuinely feel that the normal method of registering protest, i.e., voting, has ceased to function for them. The overall smug and condescending tone of the mainstream and social media barons and the professional class only exacerbates this feeling. How many of us here has had to face years of despair because of job loss, and loss of social standing due to globalization and corporate greed? Do we have any genuine hope (and more importantly, need) of understanding this 74 million?
- TT3351 6y ago
  How do you suggest we do that without disrespecting the far greater number of Americans who voted in good faith in a free and fair election for Joe Biden? Democracy makes losers of us all once in a while, we need to learn to live with it.
  - rmk 6y ago
    It's obvious that most of the people who voted for the losing side did not show up at the protest. An even smaller fraction breached the Capitol Building. It's interesting that you say that Biden voters feel disrespected because Trump voters protested something in the way they did. When BLM protesters vandalized (mostly poor or middle-class people's) shops, do you think it was reasonable for non-BLM people (most Trump supporters) to be outraged? If not, therein lies the problem. BTW, there were violent riots when Trump was elected president, including in Oakland, Portland etc.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Portland,_Oregon_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Portland,_Oregon_riots
    - TT3351 6y ago
      Perhaps I should rephrase, what are the specific policy goals you would like to see that could be pursued to help restore faith in the electoral process?
willis936 6y ago
Trump is the one who chose twitter. No position on the planet has more choices to spread a message to an audience than the POTUS. Twitter owes Trump nothing. He broke their rules and faces the consequences. One politician being banned on social media sites is not a sign of the technocracy subverting democracy; it’s a sign that no one is above consequences of their own actions.
miguelmota 6y ago
Curious, do you think all 74 million people are actually outraged? A lot of people voted republican because of libertarian views, not because they support Trump specifically. A lot of them also don't believe the election was rigged. The capitol riots that occurred this week have also swayed more people away from the conservative party. Trump still has millions of supporters but I think that number is tricking down given the recent events.
- mapme 6y ago
  Polling shows ~50% of Rs say that it was rigged. So not all, but that’s a big number. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll/half-of-republicans-say-biden-won-because-of-a-rigged-election-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKBN27Y1AJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll/half-of...

by shiado 6y ago

cecja 6y ago

It's not 74 million the last time I checked it was 40% of them. Stop spreading FUD, stop inciting violence sit in your troll cave and shut the fuck up.

TeaDrunk 6y ago

American democracy was changed long before this. (see: southern strategy, freeing of slaves, allowing women the vote...)

jupdarter 6y ago

I doubt it’s as big as you say. Watch interviews with normal Trump voters (ie, not the meme-lords and q nuts), and they have expressed a pretty high degree of frustration with his Twitter habit for most of his presidency. Given how long Twitter has put up with the obvious abuse of the latitude they uniquely gave him, a lot of people may be grumpy but will understand. Had they done this years ago and NOT given him such exceptional latitude, then you’d probably have seen much larger blowback.

JoBrad 6y ago
Additionally, even those who voted for him likely voted _against_ the other candidate rather than _for_ Pres Trump. His approval ratings have never been high, and are lower at this point in his term than any other recent President except Pres Carter. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/ https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/
freewilly1040 6y ago
45% of Republicans support the actions at the capitol https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/01/06/US-capitol-trump-poll https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/20...

TT3351 6y ago

You say this like its the first time Americans have had to learn to live with having lost a federal election. Half the country is disappointed every four years. Starting to make concessions to terrorists because they got really upset after being lied to repeatedly makes no sense.

that_guy_iain 6y ago
There is a difference between disappointed and storming a goverment building to stop the offical event required to make it offical. That difference is a lot of anger. Honestly, I don't think America has seen this before. Not even with the war of independence, that was kind of difference since it was about not getting a vote and not that the vote didn't matter.
- TT3351 6y ago
  What are you suggesting by "the vote didn't matter?" Just because they might believe Trump's lies about the most recent election doesn't mean their emotions are justified.
  - that_guy_iain 6y ago
    > What are you suggesting by "the vote didn't matter?" Just because they might believe Trump's lies about the most recent election doesn't mean their emotions are justified. I believe, they believe the election was rigged. Justified or not, it doesn't stop them from doing stuff.
    - TT3351 6y ago
      Isn't the remedy to that to show them less of the guy who's been lying to them? How will allowing him to continue lying and myth building avoid further violence?
      - 1MachineElf 6y ago
        You could also have investigated voter fraud. You know, the whole reason why they came there to protest in the first place. That's an option. You will likely dismiss it because you've been told that there is no voter fraud, but dismissing something doesn't actually address it. Nothing about the objections brought up when states like Pennsylvania were being reviewed was actually addressed by the so-called winning side.

chr1 6y ago

Maybe the solution is to use 21st century tools for democracy in 21st century. Issue based open voting, flexible mechanism of vote delegation, and ability to trade votes to reach compromise can fix what social media have broken https://voteflux.org https://voteflux.org

sixothree 6y ago

There have been closer elections in recent history. Why are you giving this particular one such outsized proportion? You didn't see this sort of reaction in 2000, and that was far far closer. And to be clear, this election was 306 to 232. That is considered a landslide in my book (meaning my 40+ years of living). And in percentages, you can see just how poorly Trump performed in this election - 51.4% to 46.9%. 2000 was 47.9% to 48.4% (technically a negative 0.5% difference). So I think your argument is completely disingenuous.

colonwqbang 6y ago
> Why are you giving this particular one such outsized proportion? > You didn't see this sort of reaction in 2000 I think you found the reason? When exactly have we seen such a reaction before?
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Maybe you could actually say something, instead of expecting us to guess...
- timmytokyo 6y ago
  When have we seen the loser's followers violently storm the Capitol to stop the certification of the election's votes? Never in the US.
physicles 6y ago
This isn’t about closeness at all. It’s about ~half the country actually believing that the election was rigged. That doesn’t have precedent as far as I know.
- sixothree 6y ago
  That's too bad. They're wrong. And using violence is not the answer.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  To be fair, the other half of the country believed that the previous election was thrown by Russian interference. And to be really fair, half of the country believed neither of those things. There are plenty of people who voted for Trump who believe that he lost fair and square, and ditto Hillary voters in the previous election.

notional 6y ago

> the technocratic elite have changed American democracy forever You keep blaming tech companies for the poor actions of the adults using it and it doesn't make sense.

enumjorge 6y ago

> the technocratic elite have changed American democracy forever The president has spent weeks trying to delegitimize the results of a democratic election, culminating yesterday by inciting a mob to de-rail the ratifying of the results, but it’s the banning of said president from a social media site that has changed American democracy forever. Right.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

MattGaiser 6y ago

In a book about how the Trump era changed democracy, this would merit a paragraph or two at most.

rmk 6y ago

It appears to me that there is a huge electorate that is disgruntled and has felt that the people in power have ignored it for too long. If such a large number of people have actually vandalized Congress (didn't they do something like this to the Michigan Statehouse) to make their displeasure known, then they must genuinely feel that the normal method of registering protest, i.e., voting, has ceased to function for them. The overall smug and condescending tone of the mainstream and social media barons and the professional class only exacerbates this feeling. How many of us here has had to face years of despair because of job loss, and loss of social standing due to globalization and corporate greed? Do we have any genuine hope (and more importantly, need) of understanding this 74 million?

TT3351 6y ago
How do you suggest we do that without disrespecting the far greater number of Americans who voted in good faith in a free and fair election for Joe Biden? Democracy makes losers of us all once in a while, we need to learn to live with it.
- rmk 6y ago
  It's obvious that most of the people who voted for the losing side did not show up at the protest. An even smaller fraction breached the Capitol Building. It's interesting that you say that Biden voters feel disrespected because Trump voters protested something in the way they did. When BLM protesters vandalized (mostly poor or middle-class people's) shops, do you think it was reasonable for non-BLM people (most Trump supporters) to be outraged? If not, therein lies the problem. BTW, there were violent riots when Trump was elected president, including in Oakland, Portland etc.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Portland,_Oregon_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Portland,_Oregon_riots
  - TT3351 6y ago
    Perhaps I should rephrase, what are the specific policy goals you would like to see that could be pursued to help restore faith in the electoral process?

willis936 6y ago

Trump is the one who chose twitter. No position on the planet has more choices to spread a message to an audience than the POTUS. Twitter owes Trump nothing. He broke their rules and faces the consequences. One politician being banned on social media sites is not a sign of the technocracy subverting democracy; it’s a sign that no one is above consequences of their own actions.

miguelmota 6y ago

Curious, do you think all 74 million people are actually outraged? A lot of people voted republican because of libertarian views, not because they support Trump specifically. A lot of them also don't believe the election was rigged. The capitol riots that occurred this week have also swayed more people away from the conservative party. Trump still has millions of supporters but I think that number is tricking down given the recent events.

mapme 6y ago
Polling shows ~50% of Rs say that it was rigged. So not all, but that’s a big number. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll/half-of-republicans-say-biden-won-because-of-a-rigged-election-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKBN27Y1AJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll/half-of...