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Except what you’re saying is false. Democrats overwhelmingly condemned the riots and violence during the BLM protests. But most protests and protestors were pea

by mint2 6y ago

Except what you’re saying is false. Democrats overwhelmingly condemned the riots and violence during the BLM protests. But most protests and protestors were peaceful and they supported those ones. If everyone is going to knowingly twist facts like your post does, there is no point in even trying to debate.

ufmace 6y ago
It's a demonstration. I'm only twisting the facts about as much as /u/jakelazaroff did in the post I replied to. By his rules, if somebody in a group was once involved in violence, no matter what the story of it was, you can claim that it has a "history of violence". If a left-wing activist found a photo of somebody posing with somebody they call a "far right extremist and terrorist", then you can claim that they have "connections to various far right extremist and terrorist groups". If somebody associated with the movement once carried some sort of weapon, then you can smear the entire group as carrying it. If some violent act, like planting a bomb, happened around their thing but nobody is sure who did it yet, then you can ignore that the true perpetrator is unknown and just smear the whole movement as being associated with it. I don't see you attacking /u/jakelazaroff for doing these things. Why should I believe you're interested in having an actual debate? If his side is permitted to spread propaganda full of vague accusations and wild exaggerations, then why shouldn't I respond in kind? Why should I accept the argument that "most protests and protestors were peaceful" when your side spends all its time trying to ignore anything peaceful my side does and smear everyone with the worst interpretation of the worst thing that happened?
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  Proud Boys and QAnon were both out in force. What's the story on them? What's the story on all the people wearing Nazi regalia? The people carrying guns and zip ties?
  - ufmace 6y ago
    Why not pay attention to the hundreds of thousands of Americans who came to DC to protest but had nothing to do with the storming of the capitol? Here's a picture of the massive crowd: https://twitter.com/DineshDSouza/status/1346855168063778816/photo/1 https://twitter.com/DineshDSouza/status/1346855168063778816/... If your side wants me to pay attention to the actual peaceful protestors and legitimate complaints in the BLM movement instead of the riots and looting, why do you focus on a few hundred people who do something that's dramatic but fairly harmless at the end of the day (to anyone but them) when ~500x more people were there peacefully and didn't even know about the capitol storming until they saw it on the news?
    - pqhwan 6y ago
      > Why not pay attention to the hundreds of thousands of Americans who came to DC to protest but had nothing to do with the storming of the capitol? Because they didn’t break into congress? There’s a special type of attention you deserve when you form a mob and storm national legislatures (as seen on TV!), and neither the peaceful protesters from the Trump rally or BLM did that.
adolph 6y ago
Snopes: Campaign staffers for U.S. Democratic 2020 presidential candidate Joe Biden contributed to a bailout fund for protesters arrested after the police in-custody death of George Floyd. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-staffers-bailout-fund/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-staffers-bailout-fun... Harris, a former California state attorney general, asked the public to bail out protesters https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/reviewing-the-facts-in-anti-harris-ad-on-accused-child-rapist/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/reviewing-the-facts-in-ant... Can you talk about rioting as a tactic? What are the reasons people deploy it as a strategy? It does a number of important things. It gets people what they need for free immediately, which means that they are capable of living and reproducing their lives without having to rely on jobs or a wage — which, during COVID times, is widely unreliable or, particularly in these communities is often not available, or it comes at great risk. That's looting's most basic tactical power as a political mode of action. https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/08/27/906642178/one-authors-argument-in-defense-of-looting https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/08/27/906642178...
- mint2 6y ago
  > Biden has publicly stated his opposition to the cash-bail system, referring to the practice as a “modern-day debtors’ prison.” However, no evidence exists to suggest that donated funds came directly from the campaign. You do realize posting bail isn’t excusing the punishment? And Biden repeatedly condemned violence and the rioters. He and the other prominent dems did not spend months encouraging them. And that NPR article is some rando, not a Congress person or anyone else important. Why did you even bring up some rando? If that’s the most relevant person you can find then you’re providing strong evidence against your case.
  - adolph 6y ago
    >You do realize posting bail isn’t excusing the punishment? There is no need to excuse or not excuse. People’s words are rarely as enlightening about their value system as their actions. By promoting the posting of bail for those arrested during protests in which much harm was caused those that promoted that bailout show that they are interested in continuing those actions. If Democrats such as Sen Harris held as a value the true problem of process as punishment and the unfair cash bail, there was plenty of time before and after that point in history to promote it. By choosing that point in time they actions spoke louder than words as to what they value. I’m glad that the president elect has spoken against cash bail although it seems to be a subject out of his federal expertise. NPR and particular parts of the organization are ostensibly nonpartisan but are in such alignment with Democratic Party positions value-wise that the assertion of nonpartisanship is a distinction is without a difference. I write and think that as a lifelong listener. By promoting “In Defence of Looting” when they did it was clear that it wasn’t a random book review but an editorial statement of what behavior was acceptable and a dramatic non-denunciation of extra-legal actions taken by people peripheral to the protests of the period. Would you be willing to wager something about some concrete action a Biden administration could take about cash bail that would indicate a care for the topic outside of the quadrennial BLM protests? It might be a block grant to assist municipalities in decreasing cash bail or a regulatory restriction on funding that encouraged the same, or some other class of concrete action that wasn’t just words.

by mint2 6y ago

ufmace 6y ago

It's a demonstration. I'm only twisting the facts about as much as /u/jakelazaroff did in the post I replied to. By his rules, if somebody in a group was once involved in violence, no matter what the story of it was, you can claim that it has a "history of violence". If a left-wing activist found a photo of somebody posing with somebody they call a "far right extremist and terrorist", then you can claim that they have "connections to various far right extremist and terrorist groups". If somebody associated with the movement once carried some sort of weapon, then you can smear the entire group as carrying it. If some violent act, like planting a bomb, happened around their thing but nobody is sure who did it yet, then you can ignore that the true perpetrator is unknown and just smear the whole movement as being associated with it. I don't see you attacking /u/jakelazaroff for doing these things. Why should I believe you're interested in having an actual debate? If his side is permitted to spread propaganda full of vague accusations and wild exaggerations, then why shouldn't I respond in kind? Why should I accept the argument that "most protests and protestors were peaceful" when your side spends all its time trying to ignore anything peaceful my side does and smear everyone with the worst interpretation of the worst thing that happened?

jakelazaroff 6y ago
Proud Boys and QAnon were both out in force. What's the story on them? What's the story on all the people wearing Nazi regalia? The people carrying guns and zip ties?
- ufmace 6y ago
  Why not pay attention to the hundreds of thousands of Americans who came to DC to protest but had nothing to do with the storming of the capitol? Here's a picture of the massive crowd: https://twitter.com/DineshDSouza/status/1346855168063778816/photo/1 https://twitter.com/DineshDSouza/status/1346855168063778816/... If your side wants me to pay attention to the actual peaceful protestors and legitimate complaints in the BLM movement instead of the riots and looting, why do you focus on a few hundred people who do something that's dramatic but fairly harmless at the end of the day (to anyone but them) when ~500x more people were there peacefully and didn't even know about the capitol storming until they saw it on the news?
  - pqhwan 6y ago
    > Why not pay attention to the hundreds of thousands of Americans who came to DC to protest but had nothing to do with the storming of the capitol? Because they didn’t break into congress? There’s a special type of attention you deserve when you form a mob and storm national legislatures (as seen on TV!), and neither the peaceful protesters from the Trump rally or BLM did that.

adolph 6y ago

Snopes: Campaign staffers for U.S. Democratic 2020 presidential candidate Joe Biden contributed to a bailout fund for protesters arrested after the police in-custody death of George Floyd. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-staffers-bailout-fund/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-staffers-bailout-fun... Harris, a former California state attorney general, asked the public to bail out protesters https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/reviewing-the-facts-in-anti-harris-ad-on-accused-child-rapist/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/reviewing-the-facts-in-ant... Can you talk about rioting as a tactic? What are the reasons people deploy it as a strategy? It does a number of important things. It gets people what they need for free immediately, which means that they are capable of living and reproducing their lives without having to rely on jobs or a wage — which, during COVID times, is widely unreliable or, particularly in these communities is often not available, or it comes at great risk. That's looting's most basic tactical power as a political mode of action. https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/08/27/906642178/one-authors-argument-in-defense-of-looting https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/08/27/906642178...

mint2 6y ago
> Biden has publicly stated his opposition to the cash-bail system, referring to the practice as a “modern-day debtors’ prison.” However, no evidence exists to suggest that donated funds came directly from the campaign. You do realize posting bail isn’t excusing the punishment? And Biden repeatedly condemned violence and the rioters. He and the other prominent dems did not spend months encouraging them. And that NPR article is some rando, not a Congress person or anyone else important. Why did you even bring up some rando? If that’s the most relevant person you can find then you’re providing strong evidence against your case.
- adolph 6y ago
  >You do realize posting bail isn’t excusing the punishment? There is no need to excuse or not excuse. People’s words are rarely as enlightening about their value system as their actions. By promoting the posting of bail for those arrested during protests in which much harm was caused those that promoted that bailout show that they are interested in continuing those actions. If Democrats such as Sen Harris held as a value the true problem of process as punishment and the unfair cash bail, there was plenty of time before and after that point in history to promote it. By choosing that point in time they actions spoke louder than words as to what they value. I’m glad that the president elect has spoken against cash bail although it seems to be a subject out of his federal expertise. NPR and particular parts of the organization are ostensibly nonpartisan but are in such alignment with Democratic Party positions value-wise that the assertion of nonpartisanship is a distinction is without a difference. I write and think that as a lifelong listener. By promoting “In Defence of Looting” when they did it was clear that it wasn’t a random book review but an editorial statement of what behavior was acceptable and a dramatic non-denunciation of extra-legal actions taken by people peripheral to the protests of the period. Would you be willing to wager something about some concrete action a Biden administration could take about cash bail that would indicate a care for the topic outside of the quadrennial BLM protests? It might be a block grant to assist municipalities in decreasing cash bail or a regulatory restriction on funding that encouraged the same, or some other class of concrete action that wasn’t just words.