5 ms·

Seems like it ought to be possible to have both, to some degree. I don't want the capitol to be a fortress, but they need to prevent stuff like this. I mean...

by davidw 6y ago

Seems like it ought to be possible to have both, to some degree. I don't want the capitol to be a fortress, but they need to prevent stuff like this. I mean... the US spends massive amounts of money on the police and military. I think it should be kind of like a non-Newtonian fluid. Walk in slowly and peacefully and it's ok. Try and punch it, it solidifies quickly.

35fbe7d3d5b9 6y ago
American history[1] shows this probably isn't a requirement - beyond a foreign military attacking, which is clearly out of scope of policing, the other attacks were acts carried out by isolated people. "Storming the gates" hasn't happened before now. I suspect the main reason that this hasn't happened before is that very large protests/gatherings are often met with a large show of police force to ensure the protestors know this isn't an option. Why that didn't happen today will be interesting to investigate. We all probably have a theory, but what comes out of the inevitable hearings on this will be interesting to see. [1]: https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/us-capitol-violence-history-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/us-capitol-violence-histor...
- rayiner 6y ago
  They’re often not met with a show of police force. Here’s a picture of the Million Man March in the 1990s: https://images.app.goo.gl/WSvMYDK4asyav5HX7 https://images.app.goo.gl/WSvMYDK4asyav5HX7 There are hundreds of thousands of people behind the camera, going all the way to the Lincoln Memorial. You can see some security milling around, but no large show of police force.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    The Million Man March's attendance didn't include people with an established history of bringing weapons and wearing body armor at ostensibly peaceful demonstrations.
    - chroem- 6y ago
      That couldn't be further from the truth. A large group of Black Panthers armed with assault weapons stormed the CA capitol in 1967 as part of a protest. https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/history/article148667224.html https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/history/article148667224.h...
      - mumblemumble 6y ago
        That was almost 3 decades before the Million Man March, and a completely different organization.
        selimthegrim 6y ago
        The Fruit of Islam weren’t there?
  - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
    The Bonus Army protests weren't entirely without conflict.
tshaddox 6y ago
There are, for instance, buildings with large areas that are open to the public and other areas which hold large amounts of money that are very important to protect.
deevolution 6y ago
If the people really want to overthrow the government, some jacked up defenses around capitol buildings won't stop anything imho, it just means the resistance will bring heavier weapons to match.
- 35fbe7d3d5b9 6y ago
  Occupying buildings is, honestly, pretty silly if your goal is to overthrow the government. A few years(?) ago, Mitch McConnell's dinner at a restaurant was interrupted by protestors yelling at him. And that was after what happened to Gabby Giffords. Targets with higher ROI are available to people willing to take, ahem, kinetic actions.
qchris 6y ago
I actually really like this analogy. I'm curious if there's there's a term for that kind of playbook for folks who are more familiar with building security.
- joeyrideout 6y ago
  The only analogue that comes to mind is in financial fraud detection: moving money slowly or in a predictable pattern (monthly rent payments etc.) triggers no alarms, but large or unexpected transfers raise alarms.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 6y ago
    I remember when I left my last job that my manager cautioned me against making any large file transfers since it would trigger IT alarms about employees trying to steal the company's IP. Clearly, he didn't think I was a threat, or if I was, that I would have been smart enough to do it long ago, and slowly :-)
dragonwriter 6y ago
> I don't want the capitol to be a fortress, but they need to prevent stuff like this. And they would have, had the Trump Administration not denied the D.C Mayor's request the day before for the D.C. National Guard to be deployed. The Administration also delayed approval of requests by Virginia and Maryland to send Guard units to the Capitol in response to urgent calls for aid from Congressional leaders when it became clear the MPD and Capitol Police were overwhelmed. Of course, it's a problem when the person inciting the insurrection has authority over important components of the security against it.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  They (the people inciting it) were literally dancing and having a party and watching the start of the chaos on livestream while it went down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZQDgBSSYjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZQDgBSSYjI
- tomp 6y ago
  Do you have a source for this? I read that it was actually the other way around: > A new report Thursday revealed that Sund turned down an offer from the FBI and the National Guard to help cops in the event of unrest. https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/capitol-police-chief-steven-sund-resigns-after-turbulent-dc-protests/ https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/capitol-police-chief-steven-su...
mrits 6y ago
I think the reality is that we could have prevented it. We just chose not to murder half the crowd. Preventing it without using lethal force requires a much larger force than you want to keep on hand.
O_H_E 6y ago
> I think it should be kind of like a non-Newtonian fluid. Walk in slowly and peacefully and it's ok. Try and punch it, it solidifies quickly. I love that so much.

by davidw 6y ago

35fbe7d3d5b9 6y ago

American history[1] shows this probably isn't a requirement - beyond a foreign military attacking, which is clearly out of scope of policing, the other attacks were acts carried out by isolated people. "Storming the gates" hasn't happened before now. I suspect the main reason that this hasn't happened before is that very large protests/gatherings are often met with a large show of police force to ensure the protestors know this isn't an option. Why that didn't happen today will be interesting to investigate. We all probably have a theory, but what comes out of the inevitable hearings on this will be interesting to see. [1]: https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/us-capitol-violence-history-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/us-capitol-violence-histor...

rayiner 6y ago
They’re often not met with a show of police force. Here’s a picture of the Million Man March in the 1990s: https://images.app.goo.gl/WSvMYDK4asyav5HX7 https://images.app.goo.gl/WSvMYDK4asyav5HX7 There are hundreds of thousands of people behind the camera, going all the way to the Lincoln Memorial. You can see some security milling around, but no large show of police force.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  The Million Man March's attendance didn't include people with an established history of bringing weapons and wearing body armor at ostensibly peaceful demonstrations.
  - chroem- 6y ago
    That couldn't be further from the truth. A large group of Black Panthers armed with assault weapons stormed the CA capitol in 1967 as part of a protest. https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/history/article148667224.html https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/history/article148667224.h...
    - mumblemumble 6y ago
      That was almost 3 decades before the Million Man March, and a completely different organization.
      - selimthegrim 6y ago
        The Fruit of Islam weren’t there?
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  The Bonus Army protests weren't entirely without conflict.

tshaddox 6y ago

There are, for instance, buildings with large areas that are open to the public and other areas which hold large amounts of money that are very important to protect.

deevolution 6y ago

If the people really want to overthrow the government, some jacked up defenses around capitol buildings won't stop anything imho, it just means the resistance will bring heavier weapons to match.

35fbe7d3d5b9 6y ago
Occupying buildings is, honestly, pretty silly if your goal is to overthrow the government. A few years(?) ago, Mitch McConnell's dinner at a restaurant was interrupted by protestors yelling at him. And that was after what happened to Gabby Giffords. Targets with higher ROI are available to people willing to take, ahem, kinetic actions.

qchris 6y ago

I actually really like this analogy. I'm curious if there's there's a term for that kind of playbook for folks who are more familiar with building security.

joeyrideout 6y ago
The only analogue that comes to mind is in financial fraud detection: moving money slowly or in a predictable pattern (monthly rent payments etc.) triggers no alarms, but large or unexpected transfers raise alarms.
- HeyLaughingBoy 6y ago
  I remember when I left my last job that my manager cautioned me against making any large file transfers since it would trigger IT alarms about employees trying to steal the company's IP. Clearly, he didn't think I was a threat, or if I was, that I would have been smart enough to do it long ago, and slowly :-)

dragonwriter 6y ago

> I don't want the capitol to be a fortress, but they need to prevent stuff like this. And they would have, had the Trump Administration not denied the D.C Mayor's request the day before for the D.C. National Guard to be deployed. The Administration also delayed approval of requests by Virginia and Maryland to send Guard units to the Capitol in response to urgent calls for aid from Congressional leaders when it became clear the MPD and Capitol Police were overwhelmed. Of course, it's a problem when the person inciting the insurrection has authority over important components of the security against it.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago
They (the people inciting it) were literally dancing and having a party and watching the start of the chaos on livestream while it went down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZQDgBSSYjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZQDgBSSYjI
tomp 6y ago
Do you have a source for this? I read that it was actually the other way around: > A new report Thursday revealed that Sund turned down an offer from the FBI and the National Guard to help cops in the event of unrest. https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/capitol-police-chief-steven-sund-resigns-after-turbulent-dc-protests/ https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/capitol-police-chief-steven-su...

mrits 6y ago

I think the reality is that we could have prevented it. We just chose not to murder half the crowd. Preventing it without using lethal force requires a much larger force than you want to keep on hand.

O_H_E 6y ago

> I think it should be kind of like a non-Newtonian fluid. Walk in slowly and peacefully and it's ok. Try and punch it, it solidifies quickly. I love that so much.