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> the Signal team fundamentally does not value chat history the same way a lot of people do This is the core problem as why many projects don't get mainstream.

> the Signal team fundamentally does not value chat history the same way a lot of people do This is the core problem as why many projects don't get mainstream. They have 2 options: they can focus on what they think is a priority, or on what the public thinks is a priority. I'm not saying Signal is wrong on doing what they are doing, as they are being successful among some niches (i.e: tech). But to grab Whatsapp users, they need feature and UX parity, at least to some level

skrowl 6y ago
This is exactly why Telegram is beating Signal. They're singularly focused on the user experience and what users want. Uninstall / reinstall / multiple-devices works flawlessly.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  I fundamentally distrust any program which claims E2E encryption and is capable of recovering my chat history onto a new device. This means that Telegram is technically able to recover my chat history, making the "E2E" bit of the encryption smoke-and-mirrors.
  - FalconSensei 6y ago
    I can be wrong, but on Telegram E2E is not default. Those are used only in 'secret chats', which I believe are not recoverable. So you can use regular texting for everything you don't care much about, like sending youtube videos and memes to your friends, and use the secret chat to things that re more sensitive. That's great for most people that currently use Whatsapp
    - greiskul 6y ago
      How is that great? On whatsapp everything you do is E2E by default.
      - higerordermap 6y ago
        * normal ppl care about chat history more than encryption, and telegram can be accessed from many devices without tethering from one (a la whatsapp). If you want E2EE anyway, you can use E2EE chats. * Whatsapp is closed source, so you can't tell if the encryption is true anyway (what if they are transmitting your private key?). Telegram has open source implementation and API. * Facebook will not have your metadata. The subject of these events is basically FB having too much of data about you.
      - FalconSensei 6y ago
        In my case, I care more about being able to use it without depending on my phone, than E2E. The single thing I hate the most on any messenger is my phone having to be on and online, for me to send/receive messages on my computer
    - charwalker 6y ago
      Not my field but: https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        Right, that's not the default option.
  - cmeacham98 6y ago
    I am unaware of Telegram's implementation, but this is not necessarily true. The app could use a secret you provide and only you know (most obviously, your password) to store and restore chat history.
  - JoshTriplett 6y ago
    > I fundamentally distrust any program which claims E2E encryption and is capable of recovering my chat history onto a new device. I would expect a Signal implementation of this to allow recovering chat history if you restore a backup onto the new device and if you re-enter your PIN.
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      Your pin is not your key, even through a KDF. That would allow guessing with only 10**4 guesses. Signal exports an unencrypted backup to a formatted text file, which can then be imported by another signal instance.
      - JoshTriplett 6y ago
        I don't mean a network backup. I mean a device-to-device data transfer, for which the device passphrase and the Signal PIN together should be sufficient. (Also, your Signal PIN can be an alphanumeric passphrase.)
  - gsich 6y ago
    Telegram only has E2E if you enable it. "Normal" chats are not E2E encrypted.
- natenthe 6y ago
  That's ok. I care about data hygiene. Signal cares about data hygiene. I don't want old data lying around and ready to be used by nefarious third parties at any point in the future. I'm sticking with Signal as long as they stay true to their values. I don't need it to be #1.
  - dunefox 6y ago
    > I don't need it to be #1. I don't either, but a chat app is useless if I can't use it to chat with people and almost nobody I know will consider Signal. It's either WhatsApp, Telegram, or SMS (horrible).
charwalker 6y ago
Telegram is really good for this, in my experience, and similar to Signal. But you're right, Signal is designed for secure communication between parties. Allowing messages to be exported or archived should at worst leave only your own messages (and remove all others including media) and at best not exist at all. Sure, let me just single handedly backup our conversation and send it to the HK police...
- FalconSensei 6y ago
  That's the thing, there are different types of uses. And in my case, I only message family and close friends. I doubt my mom will send my 'good morning', 'good night' and 'love you' to the HK police. If you are communicating with people you don't know/trust, then yeah, you want expiring messages that are not exportable
- carlhjerpe 6y ago
  You should be aware that if you can read messages on the screen with an open source app they can be exported. There's no way around this, if the app is closed source it might be initially harder to export but just as possible.

skrowl 6y ago

This is exactly why Telegram is beating Signal. They're singularly focused on the user experience and what users want. Uninstall / reinstall / multiple-devices works flawlessly.

freeone3000 6y ago
I fundamentally distrust any program which claims E2E encryption and is capable of recovering my chat history onto a new device. This means that Telegram is technically able to recover my chat history, making the "E2E" bit of the encryption smoke-and-mirrors.
- FalconSensei 6y ago
  I can be wrong, but on Telegram E2E is not default. Those are used only in 'secret chats', which I believe are not recoverable. So you can use regular texting for everything you don't care much about, like sending youtube videos and memes to your friends, and use the secret chat to things that re more sensitive. That's great for most people that currently use Whatsapp
  - greiskul 6y ago
    How is that great? On whatsapp everything you do is E2E by default.
    - higerordermap 6y ago
      * normal ppl care about chat history more than encryption, and telegram can be accessed from many devices without tethering from one (a la whatsapp). If you want E2EE anyway, you can use E2EE chats. * Whatsapp is closed source, so you can't tell if the encryption is true anyway (what if they are transmitting your private key?). Telegram has open source implementation and API. * Facebook will not have your metadata. The subject of these events is basically FB having too much of data about you.
    - FalconSensei 6y ago
      In my case, I care more about being able to use it without depending on my phone, than E2E. The single thing I hate the most on any messenger is my phone having to be on and online, for me to send/receive messages on my computer
  - charwalker 6y ago
    Not my field but: https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Right, that's not the default option.
- cmeacham98 6y ago
  I am unaware of Telegram's implementation, but this is not necessarily true. The app could use a secret you provide and only you know (most obviously, your password) to store and restore chat history.
- JoshTriplett 6y ago
  > I fundamentally distrust any program which claims E2E encryption and is capable of recovering my chat history onto a new device. I would expect a Signal implementation of this to allow recovering chat history if you restore a backup onto the new device and if you re-enter your PIN.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    Your pin is not your key, even through a KDF. That would allow guessing with only 10**4 guesses. Signal exports an unencrypted backup to a formatted text file, which can then be imported by another signal instance.
    - JoshTriplett 6y ago
      I don't mean a network backup. I mean a device-to-device data transfer, for which the device passphrase and the Signal PIN together should be sufficient. (Also, your Signal PIN can be an alphanumeric passphrase.)
- gsich 6y ago
  Telegram only has E2E if you enable it. "Normal" chats are not E2E encrypted.
natenthe 6y ago
That's ok. I care about data hygiene. Signal cares about data hygiene. I don't want old data lying around and ready to be used by nefarious third parties at any point in the future. I'm sticking with Signal as long as they stay true to their values. I don't need it to be #1.
- dunefox 6y ago
  > I don't need it to be #1. I don't either, but a chat app is useless if I can't use it to chat with people and almost nobody I know will consider Signal. It's either WhatsApp, Telegram, or SMS (horrible).

charwalker 6y ago

Telegram is really good for this, in my experience, and similar to Signal. But you're right, Signal is designed for secure communication between parties. Allowing messages to be exported or archived should at worst leave only your own messages (and remove all others including media) and at best not exist at all. Sure, let me just single handedly backup our conversation and send it to the HK police...

FalconSensei 6y ago
That's the thing, there are different types of uses. And in my case, I only message family and close friends. I doubt my mom will send my 'good morning', 'good night' and 'love you' to the HK police. If you are communicating with people you don't know/trust, then yeah, you want expiring messages that are not exportable
carlhjerpe 6y ago
You should be aware that if you can read messages on the screen with an open source app they can be exported. There's no way around this, if the app is closed source it might be initially harder to export but just as possible.