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Thanks for posting this. I was considering making the jump to a new messenger but decided to wait and see what others had to say about the changes to the privac

by vin047 6y ago

Thanks for posting this. I was considering making the jump to a new messenger but decided to wait and see what others had to say about the changes to the privacy policy and what it actually means from a privacy perspective. The use case for businesses to be able to use it for hosted clients (probably hosted and with messages stored by facebook) makes sense, and doesn't seem as bad as its been made out to be – still get the same level of privacy we've always had between individuals and groups WhatsApp chats. > but also to less secure messaging protocols like Telegram (or, frankly, Matrix) Appreciate that Telegram doesn't have a good rep in the security community, but whats wrong with Matrix? Also, this is off-topic, but I just wanted to say thank you for all the work you've done in the past with Cydia. I was a 1st gen iPhone user, and got a lot of use from services such as Cydia (in fact i'm convinced the App Store was inspired by services like Cydia).

saurik 6y ago
Matrix is pretty open about how it hasn't been able to do anything about metadata leakage (which they have even at some times claimed is somewhat inherent to its federated nature; I think that is an overstatement, but is something that even they seem to believe). https://matrix.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017-02-03.1-FOSDEM-Encrypting-Matrix.pdf https://matrix.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017-02-0... > Matrix does not protect metadata currently; server admins can see who you talk to & when (but not what). If you need this today, look at Ricochet or Vuvuzela etc. > Protecting metadata is incompatible with bridging. > However, in future peer-to-peer home servers could run clientside, tunnelling traffic over Tor and using anonymous store-and-forward servers (a la Pond). > But for now this is sci-fi. https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/2188 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/2188 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/4565 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/4565 Signal, in contrast, put a lot of effort into metadata reduction--critical as they are a single giant hosted relay service--and in the process (I am very sure) even fixed the issue I used to complain about wherein their server was technically keeping around a temporary-ish in-memory metadata log for rate limiting. https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/ https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/ If you are going to switch to something, switch to Signal (...though I sadly can't in good faith ever really recommend anyone do that, due to how Signal has crippled the ability to do chat backups; more info on this in the other thread going on today re Signal/WhatsApp). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25686475 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25686475
- Forbo 6y ago
  Those slides are from 2017. P2P Matrix was released in June 2020. A lot of work is being done on Dendrite, the latest commit was posted two hours ago as of this writing. From the GitHub page for Dendrite: "As of November 2020 we're at around 58% CS API coverage and 83% Federation coverage, though check CI for the latest numbers." So, yes, for now the metadata leakage is a real issue. However this is likely to change in the near future.
- vin047 6y ago
  Thanks for the info. I was under the impression that you were claiming that Matrix is less secure than WhatsApp. If they both leak metadata then they're roughly equal from a privacy perspective no? I guess with WhatsApp you can't know the extent of metadata leakage, but at least with Matrix, you have the advantage of knowing precisely what data is leaked. Not trying to push Matrix or anything, i've been using Signal for some time already anyway, but thought i'd see what alternatives there are. The lack of chat backups is a real drawback, though since the Android version has a backup option, i'm hoping it's something they'll eventually implement?

by vin047 6y ago

saurik 6y ago

Matrix is pretty open about how it hasn't been able to do anything about metadata leakage (which they have even at some times claimed is somewhat inherent to its federated nature; I think that is an overstatement, but is something that even they seem to believe). https://matrix.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017-02-03.1-FOSDEM-Encrypting-Matrix.pdf https://matrix.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017-02-0... > Matrix does not protect metadata currently; server admins can see who you talk to & when (but not what). If you need this today, look at Ricochet or Vuvuzela etc. > Protecting metadata is incompatible with bridging. > However, in future peer-to-peer home servers could run clientside, tunnelling traffic over Tor and using anonymous store-and-forward servers (a la Pond). > But for now this is sci-fi. https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/2188 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/2188 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/4565 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/4565 Signal, in contrast, put a lot of effort into metadata reduction--critical as they are a single giant hosted relay service--and in the process (I am very sure) even fixed the issue I used to complain about wherein their server was technically keeping around a temporary-ish in-memory metadata log for rate limiting. https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/ https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/ If you are going to switch to something, switch to Signal (...though I sadly can't in good faith ever really recommend anyone do that, due to how Signal has crippled the ability to do chat backups; more info on this in the other thread going on today re Signal/WhatsApp). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25686475 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25686475

Forbo 6y ago
Those slides are from 2017. P2P Matrix was released in June 2020. A lot of work is being done on Dendrite, the latest commit was posted two hours ago as of this writing. From the GitHub page for Dendrite: "As of November 2020 we're at around 58% CS API coverage and 83% Federation coverage, though check CI for the latest numbers." So, yes, for now the metadata leakage is a real issue. However this is likely to change in the near future.
vin047 6y ago
Thanks for the info. I was under the impression that you were claiming that Matrix is less secure than WhatsApp. If they both leak metadata then they're roughly equal from a privacy perspective no? I guess with WhatsApp you can't know the extent of metadata leakage, but at least with Matrix, you have the advantage of knowing precisely what data is leaked. Not trying to push Matrix or anything, i've been using Signal for some time already anyway, but thought i'd see what alternatives there are. The lack of chat backups is a real drawback, though since the Android version has a backup option, i'm hoping it's something they'll eventually implement?