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Georgia has a poll book. Do you know what a poll book is, and how it works? When a ballot is received, the name of the person is entered into a poll book. Th

Georgia has a poll book. Do you know what a poll book is, and how it works? When a ballot is received, the name of the person is entered into a poll book. Therefore, when you see a poll book and a pile of ballots, you can check that the counts are the same. Entering data into the poll book is therefore one of the most critical parts of an election, and is the part that is critically observed by election watchers. You cannot merely smuggle in pre-filled ballots, as the ballot counts would not match the poll book counts. You would also need to explain how poll books were falsely updated. If someone smuggled in fake ballots, AND somehow managed to falsify the poll book, it would be possible to use the poll book to ASK people if they voted. You could then find people who say they did not vote, but there is a record of them voting. It is therefore trivially falsifiable with current election procedures. Or is there something you think I'm missing? Here is the critical moment where the woman in Michigan argues with a Republican, claiming without evidence that the poll book is off, when it was literally trivial to check it. (Look for the tweet with "Holy smokes the sequel is even better!") https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1334311448340795396 https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1334311448340795396

disgrunt 6y ago
A poll book is typically used at a polling location. However, with absentee ballots, it works a little differently. In previous elections, to get an absentee ballot, you needed to request one, which had the equivalent effect to a poll book in that there was a record or paper trail that you were voting absentee. However, in many states in the 2020 election, no such request for an absentee ballot was required. In fact, some states just mailed you an absentee ballot without having to request one. This is where the poll book methodology you laid out breaks down. Suddenly your poll book is the entire voter roll.
- VikingCoder 6y ago
  The envelope has a name and signature. The ballot is inside the envelope. You verify the name is a valid voter, and you keep the envelope. The envelope, with the signature on it, becomes the poll book. 1) Someone smuggles in completed ballots. There will not be any envelopes, and their illegal acts will be detectable. 2) Someone smuggles in completed ballots and fake envelopes. The name on the envelope can be compared to voter registrations, and you can go to a voter and ask if they in fact voted. Then the illegal acts will be detectable. What am I missing?
  - disgrunt 6y ago
    The first thing that happens is the ballot is separated from the envelope. This is to protect the secrecy of the voter's choice. What is supposed to happen is that the signature on the envelope is matched with one on file (usually with the DMV or equivalent), but this rule was relaxed in Georgia in March 2020. This is the only point in the process where a mailed in absentee ballot can be verified. After this point it becomes a "naked ballot" and is not tied to the voter's identity [0] So to summarize: the only verification method was a name and a signature and the signature verification was rendered useless as a result of relaxed rule changes. Not that a signature verification is a reliable verification method, but this means the only verification mechanism in place other than a voter registration lookup was effectively removed. This means you could have voted absentee on someone else's behalf as long as a) you knew their name and that they were a registered voter, and b) could scribble on an envelope. [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/technology/georgia-recount-signature-match.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/technology/georgia-recoun...
    - VikingCoder 6y ago
      The envelope is retained. There was an audit performed on the signatures. They can count the number of envelopes vs the number of ballots. They can AND DID contact people to see if they voted. And most importantly, they can ensure one person didn't vote twice. Inventing a ballot, forging a signature, and making sure you didn't vote for someone else who would later vote themselves... 11,800 times? I'm sorry, but you need to provide evidence for that happening. Or evidence of how it COULD happen. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/a-warning-on-georgias-signature-match-11609460042 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/a-warn...
      - disgrunt 6y ago
        Someone tested this ironclad verification process and their signature was accepted eight times. [0] [0]: https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/ https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor...
mistermann 6y ago
> When a ballot is received, the name of the person is entered into a poll book. Therefore, when you see a poll book and a pile of ballots, you can check that the counts are the same. Entering data into the poll book is therefore one of the most critical parts of an election, and is the part that is critically observed by election watchers. You cannot merely smuggle in pre-filled ballots, as the ballot counts would not match the poll book counts. "When a ballot is received, the name of the person is entered into a poll book." I'm not familiar with the exact mechanics of this. From where does the ballot originate, where/how is the ballot "received", and what is the procedure for entering it into the poll book? And, is this process identical (in design, and confirmed practice) for all states and polling stations? > You would also need to explain how poll books were falsely updated. Technically, I do not. Fraud (some fraud, not necessarily massive fraud) occurred in physical reality, or it did not. My personal opinion on the matter, or lack of an explanation, is orthogonal to events that occurred in physical reality. The burden of evidence is on the one who asserts the claim. And, that which occurred in physical; reality, is that which occurred, regardless of whether we have "proof" of it. Reality itself, and human measurements/opinions/"facts" about reality, are distinct entities. Related, but different. > If someone smuggled in fake ballots, AND somehow managed to falsify the poll book, it would be possible to use the poll book to ASK people if they voted. It may be "possible", but is it practical? How difficult would it be? Is the current approach perfectly optimal, or could it be improved? > You could then find people who say they did not vote, but there is a record of them voting. We "could", but would we? Did we spot check any ballots? How much evidence do we have that demonstrates or suggests that there precisely zero anomalies anywhere in the system (and how hard did we look)? > It is therefore trivially falsifiable with current election procedures. Only if your premises are flawless. > Or is there something you think I'm missing? The above questions. Also, it's probably worth pointing out that neither of us (or a combination of us) are guaranteed to have 100% comprehensive knowledge of all possible points of failure. > Here is the critical moment where the woman in Michigan argues with a Republican, claiming without evidence that the poll book is off, when it was literally trivial to check it. (Look for the tweet with "Holy smokes the sequel is even better!") Do any comprehensive conclusions logically (and inevitably) follow from this event, or might the significance of it be more related to the notion of rhetorical/heuristic influence? I have a bit of an issue with the manner in which we approach this whole situation from an educational perspective. As a society, we've surely spent many tens or hundreds of person-hours participating in meme wars about this topic. If this sort of non-productive (and socially destructive) behavior was going on anywhere we worked, I would expect that someone was assemble a FAQ or Wiki of some sort that laid out the details - fully comprehensive, and fully accurate (across all states), in a format that is approachable by all employees. Does such a resource exist for the election process?

disgrunt 6y ago

A poll book is typically used at a polling location. However, with absentee ballots, it works a little differently. In previous elections, to get an absentee ballot, you needed to request one, which had the equivalent effect to a poll book in that there was a record or paper trail that you were voting absentee. However, in many states in the 2020 election, no such request for an absentee ballot was required. In fact, some states just mailed you an absentee ballot without having to request one. This is where the poll book methodology you laid out breaks down. Suddenly your poll book is the entire voter roll.

VikingCoder 6y ago
The envelope has a name and signature. The ballot is inside the envelope. You verify the name is a valid voter, and you keep the envelope. The envelope, with the signature on it, becomes the poll book. 1) Someone smuggles in completed ballots. There will not be any envelopes, and their illegal acts will be detectable. 2) Someone smuggles in completed ballots and fake envelopes. The name on the envelope can be compared to voter registrations, and you can go to a voter and ask if they in fact voted. Then the illegal acts will be detectable. What am I missing?
- disgrunt 6y ago
  The first thing that happens is the ballot is separated from the envelope. This is to protect the secrecy of the voter's choice. What is supposed to happen is that the signature on the envelope is matched with one on file (usually with the DMV or equivalent), but this rule was relaxed in Georgia in March 2020. This is the only point in the process where a mailed in absentee ballot can be verified. After this point it becomes a "naked ballot" and is not tied to the voter's identity [0] So to summarize: the only verification method was a name and a signature and the signature verification was rendered useless as a result of relaxed rule changes. Not that a signature verification is a reliable verification method, but this means the only verification mechanism in place other than a voter registration lookup was effectively removed. This means you could have voted absentee on someone else's behalf as long as a) you knew their name and that they were a registered voter, and b) could scribble on an envelope. [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/technology/georgia-recount-signature-match.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/technology/georgia-recoun...
  - VikingCoder 6y ago
    The envelope is retained. There was an audit performed on the signatures. They can count the number of envelopes vs the number of ballots. They can AND DID contact people to see if they voted. And most importantly, they can ensure one person didn't vote twice. Inventing a ballot, forging a signature, and making sure you didn't vote for someone else who would later vote themselves... 11,800 times? I'm sorry, but you need to provide evidence for that happening. Or evidence of how it COULD happen. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/a-warning-on-georgias-signature-match-11609460042 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/a-warn...
    - disgrunt 6y ago
      Someone tested this ironclad verification process and their signature was accepted eight times. [0] [0]: https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor-joecks/victor-joecks-clark-county-election-officials-accepted-my-signature-on-8-ballot-envelopes-2182390/ https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/opinion-columns/victor...

mistermann 6y ago

> When a ballot is received, the name of the person is entered into a poll book. Therefore, when you see a poll book and a pile of ballots, you can check that the counts are the same. Entering data into the poll book is therefore one of the most critical parts of an election, and is the part that is critically observed by election watchers. You cannot merely smuggle in pre-filled ballots, as the ballot counts would not match the poll book counts. "When a ballot is received, the name of the person is entered into a poll book." I'm not familiar with the exact mechanics of this. From where does the ballot originate, where/how is the ballot "received", and what is the procedure for entering it into the poll book? And, is this process identical (in design, and confirmed practice) for all states and polling stations? > You would also need to explain how poll books were falsely updated. Technically, I do not. Fraud (some fraud, not necessarily massive fraud) occurred in physical reality, or it did not. My personal opinion on the matter, or lack of an explanation, is orthogonal to events that occurred in physical reality. The burden of evidence is on the one who asserts the claim. And, that which occurred in physical; reality, is that which occurred, regardless of whether we have "proof" of it. Reality itself, and human measurements/opinions/"facts" about reality, are distinct entities. Related, but different. > If someone smuggled in fake ballots, AND somehow managed to falsify the poll book, it would be possible to use the poll book to ASK people if they voted. It may be "possible", but is it practical? How difficult would it be? Is the current approach perfectly optimal, or could it be improved? > You could then find people who say they did not vote, but there is a record of them voting. We "could", but would we? Did we spot check any ballots? How much evidence do we have that demonstrates or suggests that there precisely zero anomalies anywhere in the system (and how hard did we look)? > It is therefore trivially falsifiable with current election procedures. Only if your premises are flawless. > Or is there something you think I'm missing? The above questions. Also, it's probably worth pointing out that neither of us (or a combination of us) are guaranteed to have 100% comprehensive knowledge of all possible points of failure. > Here is the critical moment where the woman in Michigan argues with a Republican, claiming without evidence that the poll book is off, when it was literally trivial to check it. (Look for the tweet with "Holy smokes the sequel is even better!") Do any comprehensive conclusions logically (and inevitably) follow from this event, or might the significance of it be more related to the notion of rhetorical/heuristic influence? I have a bit of an issue with the manner in which we approach this whole situation from an educational perspective. As a society, we've surely spent many tens or hundreds of person-hours participating in meme wars about this topic. If this sort of non-productive (and socially destructive) behavior was going on anywhere we worked, I would expect that someone was assemble a FAQ or Wiki of some sort that laid out the details - fully comprehensive, and fully accurate (across all states), in a format that is approachable by all employees. Does such a resource exist for the election process?