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I'm really struggling to have empathy with people who blame Dominion for changing votes in the 2020 General Election. There was a hand recount in Georgia, was

I'm really struggling to have empathy with people who blame Dominion for changing votes in the 2020 General Election. There was a hand recount in Georgia, was there not? And the numbers agreed with what had been counted by Dominion? If you accept that the hand recount matched (within a reasonable margin of error) the count from the Dominion machines, what exactly is the rest of their objection or concern? Honestly, can someone explain this to me?

xnx 6y ago
The simplest explanation is the right one. The losing party does not accept their loss and will promote any idea that can invalidate the outcome. The judgement of dozens of court cases has been that none of these ideas have any merit.
- OJFord 6y ago
  > The simplest explanation is the right one. [...] Occam's actual razor is that the simplest explanation of competing theories is most likely the right one.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    Occam's actual razor is Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate ("Never posit plurality without necessity").
    - OJFord 6y ago
      Touché, mea culpa, et alia!
- deathlight 6y ago
  The story I heard is that most of these lawsuits are not being judged as BS on the merits (though some have). The majority are being thrown out using a variety of legal doctrines such as laches or standing. This is not necessarily unusual as court proceedings go, but the unfortunate side effect of doing this is that the ardent faithful will now have a lost-cause narrative to fall back on when everything else has been mowed clear. I would prefer more of these cases to actually be tried so that they can be obliterated on the merits. Each case that is thrown out on a technicality is another tiny lilypad to stand on, and each case that is actually refuted is the removal of that pad.
mistermann 6y ago
For Georgia, provided all the totals were a perfect match between initially published machine counts and hand counts, and the hand count methodology was transparent and trustworthy, this is enough to satisfy me. The only other attack vector I can think of would be smuggling in pre-filled ballots, and that's likely unfalsifiable with current election procedures (which I'd like to see improved, but until then we have to live with it). As for why things haven't settled overall, maybe other states don't follow the same procedures as Georgia. Did all disputed states perform hand counts?
- VikingCoder 6y ago
  Georgia has a poll book. Do you know what a poll book is, and how it works? When a ballot is received, the name of the person is entered into a poll book. Therefore, when you see a poll book and a pile of ballots, you can check that the counts are the same. Entering data into the poll book is therefore one of the most critical parts of an election, and is the part that is critically observed by election watchers. You cannot merely smuggle in pre-filled ballots, as the ballot counts would not match the poll book counts. You would also need to explain how poll books were falsely updated. If someone smuggled in fake ballots, AND somehow managed to falsify the poll book, it would be possible to use the poll book to ASK people if they voted. You could then find people who say they did not vote, but there is a record of them voting. It is therefore trivially falsifiable with current election procedures. Or is there something you think I'm missing? Here is the critical moment where the woman in Michigan argues with a Republican, claiming without evidence that the poll book is off, when it was literally trivial to check it. (Look for the tweet with "Holy smokes the sequel is even better!") https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1334311448340795396 https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1334311448340795396
  - disgrunt 6y ago
    A poll book is typically used at a polling location. However, with absentee ballots, it works a little differently. In previous elections, to get an absentee ballot, you needed to request one, which had the equivalent effect to a poll book in that there was a record or paper trail that you were voting absentee. However, in many states in the 2020 election, no such request for an absentee ballot was required. In fact, some states just mailed you an absentee ballot without having to request one. This is where the poll book methodology you laid out breaks down. Suddenly your poll book is the entire voter roll.
jariel 6y ago
You're missing the issue - this is not about the legitimacy of any particular system, it's just about lies and misinformation. The claims of widespread election fraud have no material basis, it's entirely an issue of political theatre. If you just lie, lie, lie on Twitter, FB, wherever ... then a certain number of people will believe it's true. Especially if segments of the press back you. So the normative rules of 'spin and narrative creation' which politicians and the press are all guilty of, has been escalated to 'total fabrication of facts'. There's no real foundation in real facts, which makes any of these issues impossible to navigate from that perspective. No amount of fidelity, auditing or recounts will placate a group who's objective is to reject whatever reality doesn't suit them. 'Evidence' is pointless if someone can reject it out of hand. Consider how important 'integrity' is, in all of our systems, and how badly it falls apart when we stop doing our jobs with integrity. That includes us.
- mywittyname 6y ago
  > which politicians and the press are all guilty of, This attitude is a contributing factor. It is letting people off the hook for regurgitating fabricated stories, by giving the impression that nobody is telling the truth anyway. There are several politicians and media outlets who are truthful and backing their claims with evidence (and retracting statements found to be untrue). But since some other people are liars, apparently everyone is a liar. So you might as well believe what you want.
  - jariel 6y ago
    No, the press has always been narrative-driven, and much more so in the last five years or so. It's entirely possible to paint different variations of reality withing the bounds of the same facts and the press does it all day long. Yes, the press is generally factual (I didn't imply otherwise), but bent quite strongly in one direction or another. Editorial choices abound, and most coverage is editorialized, it's not remotely straight news, there's a lot of opinion. Words have power, and the kinds of words, images news outlets decide to show, which is an editorial choice, have quite a lot of impact. It is very unhealthy to use any 'one source' for news in the US right now for this reason, unfortunately, there are no sources (outside of straight news from the wire) wherein one could not risk being in a bubble. The President and some enablers, using 'direct media' (i.e. Twitter) have chosen to outright lie, which as I mentioned has 'taken it to another level' - and some in the press have chosen not to call him out on it, tip-toeing up to the line of outright falsehoods themselves, while being careful to not necessarily engage in straight up lies. And of course, some outlets have more credibility than others.
rsynnott 6y ago
The aim of this isn't to raise legitimate concerns, it's to produce distrust. Lots of people will have heard about Dominion via dodgy Facebook news or endlessly-forwarded stuff on WhatsApp or whatever; fewer will have read about, or understood, the recounts.
- disgrunt 6y ago
  Nothing establishes trust like accusing those of making such claims, legitimate or not, of sedition.
  - VikingCoder 6y ago
    Make claims all you want. Violently storming the capitol to interfere with an election is sedition; "Rebelling against the authority of the state."
notafraudster 6y ago
I mean, your thoughts are a rational way of thinking about this. Rationally, you might think that if you are concerned about a vote tally machine, you could do a hand recount, and if it matched, then clearly the proposed fraud couldn't be taking place at the vote tally level. That's a very normal way of thinking through things. And I don't actually blame anyone who has concerns about election security or vote tallying, it's a natural and important thing to worry about. But let me suggest this: The modal person who has "concerns" about the election right now is a Republican who was told by the Republican president and Republican senators and congressmen that evil Democrats stole the election and that's why they won. It is mostly about retroactive justification of a feeling like Republicans -- or Trump, in specific -- should have won but didn't. This comes after a year long campaign of saying the news was fake, the polling was fake, Joe Biden is low energy, Hunter Biden did something horrible, 90% of OANN respondents say Trump won the debate, etc etc etc. And here I'm talking about reasonable, regular Republicans out there in the world. The modal person you hear yelling ONLINE about this stuff literally believes that the Democratic Party is an international child sex and murder ring run by Hillary Clinton and Barry Soetero (a Muslim Atheist who was born in Kenya) who gain superpowers by chemically extracting hormones from the dead kids they murder in the basement of a pizza place in DC. The legal partner of the lawyer being sued here believes that the vice president should be executed for refusing to overturn the election, that the chief justice of the Supreme Court is a pedophile and a child murderer, and that Jeffrey Epstein is still alive. The lady who got shot to death the other day is an avid follower and retweeter of this person: she died for the cause she loved, foolishly believing internet grifters who claim everything is a communist plot. The Viking guy who stormed the house floor believes he is a spiritual interpreter for a movement that says JFK Jr. is secretly alive and a middle-aged dude in a bowler hat who teamed up with Trump to execute all the Democrats who killed his father. I wish I was joking, all of this accurately reflects what we're talking about here. These are the people whose position we're trying to understand. They don't think Dominion is an election company that changed some votes or whatever, they think Dominion is a communist front run by Cuba and China and the dead former president of Venezuela and Canada (which is just China, they both start with "C", suspicious???) and Hunter Biden. Dominion's entire reason for existing is electing communists like Joe Biden. They believe that not a single Democrat won anywhere in the country, that majority-black areas of the south and majority-Latino areas of LA that vote 85% Democratic are actually Trump strongholds if not for the fraud. Don't pay any mind for why they didn't sue in the other 43 states or why they didn't try to overturn any house elections. This is like understanding why John Hinckley shot Reagan. Literally, he did it because he believed Jodie Foster was sending him psychic messages that she wanted to be with him if only he'd make a grand gesture. But I don't think we can do much if our objective is to try to convince him that he was wrong about that, because he wasn't engaging in a rational analysis of the evidence to begin with.
disgrunt 6y ago
The Dominion claim isn't the only one in Georgia. In fact, most of the lawsuits, two of which are ongoing, are regarding the changes the Georgia Secretary of State made in March 2020 to relax signature matching and ballot curing rules for absentee ballots. Since the Secretary of State is not a part of the legislature, this relaxation is alleged to be unconstitutional. You can find a breakdown of the lawsuits here. [0] There was a hand recount in Georgia. But if the dispute is over the ballots themselves and their veracity, then a recount does little to resolve it. The Georgia Governor has since called for a signature audit, but limited it to Cobb county. Most of the witness affidavits regarding signatures not being verified came out of Fulton county. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-election_lawsuits_related_to_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election_from_Georgia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-election_lawsuits_related...
- Mirioron 6y ago
  I still don't understand. How does this place the blame on Dominion? It seems like they did their thing right.
  - disgrunt 6y ago
    I was answering the other posters question as to why the recount on it's own didn't just resolve the dispute. However, there was a forensic analysis done of a Dominion voting machine in Michigan with some disturbing findings. You can read the report here. [0] > While the allowable election error rate established by the Federal Election Commission (FEC.gov) guidelines is 1 in 250,000 ballots (.0008 percent), ASOG’s forensic analysis observed an error rate of 68.05 percent, which is a significant and fatal error in security and election integrity. > In the ASOG audit, all log entries for the 2020 election cycle were found missing in the Dominion equipment they analyzed—meanwhile voter adjudication logs for previous years exist. Removal of these log files violates state laws and prevents a meaningful audit, even if the Secretary of State’s office wanted to conduct its own audit. > The ASOG audit also discovered software changes on Oct. 23, 2020, and then again on Nov. 5, 2020, just after the election. In accordance with the Help America Vote Act, this violates the 90-day Safe Harbor period which prohibits changes to election systems, without these systems undergoing recertification. [0]: https://beta.documentcloud.org/documents/20423772-antrim-county-forensics-report https://beta.documentcloud.org/documents/20423772-antrim-cou...
Fjolsvith 6y ago
Point to a single court case in the US regarding this election year where evidence was presented in court and judged. Every single case was dismissed on procedural grounds. Edit: At least with this lawsuit we will finally see some evidence.
- VikingCoder 6y ago
  > Every single case was dismissed on procedural grounds. So, the procedures should have been followed. This is such a simple thing to say, and easy to understand. Except you seem to not accept that. Why not? And the Supreme Court case, they said, even if they'd listened to the case, there would have been no remedy. Meaning, it would have been pointless to listen, but they think by law they should have listened. This says to me that the people filing these cases do not understand the procedures, do not understand the possible remedies, were not acting in good faith. Why doesn't it say that to you?
  - disgrunt 6y ago
    Maybe there isn't actually a procedure for this situation? If the highest court in the land says even if the claims turn out to be true there is still no remedy to be had. In other words, even if the election was provably stolen, they won't overturn the result. So what procedure should have been followed? You're accusing attorneys of not acting in good faith or sheer incompetence for not having a firm understanding of an entirely novel legal scenario. The Texas case was, according to reports, hotly debated in private by SCOTUS before they made their decision. Shame you weren't there to educate them on proper procedure.
    - VikingCoder 6y ago
      Yes, I am accusing attorneys of not acting in good faith. One of them literally called for the execution of the Vice President of the United States. [1] Another called for "trial by combat." [2] How tolerant am I supposed to be? > Maybe there isn't actually a procedure for this situation? For the 60 court cases? Yes, there are. > If the highest court in the land says even if the claims turn out to be true there is still no remedy to be had. Actually, that was the dissenting opinion. The decision was that the petition lacked standing. > In other words, even if the election was provably stolen They had 60 chances to prove it was stolen. I have little sympathy for someone who believes that somehow 60 different court cases were simultaneously wrongly decided. Move on to changing the laws, winning the next election. This one is decided. > Shame you weren't there to educate them on proper procedure. I think they came to the right decision. You're the one who wants to educate them. [1] : https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-allies-attack-lin-wood-after-pence-execution-tweets-2021-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-allies-attack-lin-wood... [2] : https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/watch-giuliani-demand-trial-by-combat-to-settle-election.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/watch-giuliani-deman...

xnx 6y ago

The simplest explanation is the right one. The losing party does not accept their loss and will promote any idea that can invalidate the outcome. The judgement of dozens of court cases has been that none of these ideas have any merit.

OJFord 6y ago
> The simplest explanation is the right one. [...] Occam's actual razor is that the simplest explanation of competing theories is most likely the right one.
- jfengel 6y ago
  Occam's actual razor is Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate ("Never posit plurality without necessity").
  - OJFord 6y ago
    Touché, mea culpa, et alia!
deathlight 6y ago
The story I heard is that most of these lawsuits are not being judged as BS on the merits (though some have). The majority are being thrown out using a variety of legal doctrines such as laches or standing. This is not necessarily unusual as court proceedings go, but the unfortunate side effect of doing this is that the ardent faithful will now have a lost-cause narrative to fall back on when everything else has been mowed clear. I would prefer more of these cases to actually be tried so that they can be obliterated on the merits. Each case that is thrown out on a technicality is another tiny lilypad to stand on, and each case that is actually refuted is the removal of that pad.

mistermann 6y ago

For Georgia, provided all the totals were a perfect match between initially published machine counts and hand counts, and the hand count methodology was transparent and trustworthy, this is enough to satisfy me. The only other attack vector I can think of would be smuggling in pre-filled ballots, and that's likely unfalsifiable with current election procedures (which I'd like to see improved, but until then we have to live with it). As for why things haven't settled overall, maybe other states don't follow the same procedures as Georgia. Did all disputed states perform hand counts?

VikingCoder 6y ago
Georgia has a poll book. Do you know what a poll book is, and how it works? When a ballot is received, the name of the person is entered into a poll book. Therefore, when you see a poll book and a pile of ballots, you can check that the counts are the same. Entering data into the poll book is therefore one of the most critical parts of an election, and is the part that is critically observed by election watchers. You cannot merely smuggle in pre-filled ballots, as the ballot counts would not match the poll book counts. You would also need to explain how poll books were falsely updated. If someone smuggled in fake ballots, AND somehow managed to falsify the poll book, it would be possible to use the poll book to ASK people if they voted. You could then find people who say they did not vote, but there is a record of them voting. It is therefore trivially falsifiable with current election procedures. Or is there something you think I'm missing? Here is the critical moment where the woman in Michigan argues with a Republican, claiming without evidence that the poll book is off, when it was literally trivial to check it. (Look for the tweet with "Holy smokes the sequel is even better!") https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1334311448340795396 https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1334311448340795396
- disgrunt 6y ago
  A poll book is typically used at a polling location. However, with absentee ballots, it works a little differently. In previous elections, to get an absentee ballot, you needed to request one, which had the equivalent effect to a poll book in that there was a record or paper trail that you were voting absentee. However, in many states in the 2020 election, no such request for an absentee ballot was required. In fact, some states just mailed you an absentee ballot without having to request one. This is where the poll book methodology you laid out breaks down. Suddenly your poll book is the entire voter roll.

jariel 6y ago

You're missing the issue - this is not about the legitimacy of any particular system, it's just about lies and misinformation. The claims of widespread election fraud have no material basis, it's entirely an issue of political theatre. If you just lie, lie, lie on Twitter, FB, wherever ... then a certain number of people will believe it's true. Especially if segments of the press back you. So the normative rules of 'spin and narrative creation' which politicians and the press are all guilty of, has been escalated to 'total fabrication of facts'. There's no real foundation in real facts, which makes any of these issues impossible to navigate from that perspective. No amount of fidelity, auditing or recounts will placate a group who's objective is to reject whatever reality doesn't suit them. 'Evidence' is pointless if someone can reject it out of hand. Consider how important 'integrity' is, in all of our systems, and how badly it falls apart when we stop doing our jobs with integrity. That includes us.

mywittyname 6y ago
> which politicians and the press are all guilty of, This attitude is a contributing factor. It is letting people off the hook for regurgitating fabricated stories, by giving the impression that nobody is telling the truth anyway. There are several politicians and media outlets who are truthful and backing their claims with evidence (and retracting statements found to be untrue). But since some other people are liars, apparently everyone is a liar. So you might as well believe what you want.
- jariel 6y ago
  No, the press has always been narrative-driven, and much more so in the last five years or so. It's entirely possible to paint different variations of reality withing the bounds of the same facts and the press does it all day long. Yes, the press is generally factual (I didn't imply otherwise), but bent quite strongly in one direction or another. Editorial choices abound, and most coverage is editorialized, it's not remotely straight news, there's a lot of opinion. Words have power, and the kinds of words, images news outlets decide to show, which is an editorial choice, have quite a lot of impact. It is very unhealthy to use any 'one source' for news in the US right now for this reason, unfortunately, there are no sources (outside of straight news from the wire) wherein one could not risk being in a bubble. The President and some enablers, using 'direct media' (i.e. Twitter) have chosen to outright lie, which as I mentioned has 'taken it to another level' - and some in the press have chosen not to call him out on it, tip-toeing up to the line of outright falsehoods themselves, while being careful to not necessarily engage in straight up lies. And of course, some outlets have more credibility than others.

rsynnott 6y ago

The aim of this isn't to raise legitimate concerns, it's to produce distrust. Lots of people will have heard about Dominion via dodgy Facebook news or endlessly-forwarded stuff on WhatsApp or whatever; fewer will have read about, or understood, the recounts.

disgrunt 6y ago
Nothing establishes trust like accusing those of making such claims, legitimate or not, of sedition.
- VikingCoder 6y ago
  Make claims all you want. Violently storming the capitol to interfere with an election is sedition; "Rebelling against the authority of the state."

notafraudster 6y ago

I mean, your thoughts are a rational way of thinking about this. Rationally, you might think that if you are concerned about a vote tally machine, you could do a hand recount, and if it matched, then clearly the proposed fraud couldn't be taking place at the vote tally level. That's a very normal way of thinking through things. And I don't actually blame anyone who has concerns about election security or vote tallying, it's a natural and important thing to worry about. But let me suggest this: The modal person who has "concerns" about the election right now is a Republican who was told by the Republican president and Republican senators and congressmen that evil Democrats stole the election and that's why they won. It is mostly about retroactive justification of a feeling like Republicans -- or Trump, in specific -- should have won but didn't. This comes after a year long campaign of saying the news was fake, the polling was fake, Joe Biden is low energy, Hunter Biden did something horrible, 90% of OANN respondents say Trump won the debate, etc etc etc. And here I'm talking about reasonable, regular Republicans out there in the world. The modal person you hear yelling ONLINE about this stuff literally believes that the Democratic Party is an international child sex and murder ring run by Hillary Clinton and Barry Soetero (a Muslim Atheist who was born in Kenya) who gain superpowers by chemically extracting hormones from the dead kids they murder in the basement of a pizza place in DC. The legal partner of the lawyer being sued here believes that the vice president should be executed for refusing to overturn the election, that the chief justice of the Supreme Court is a pedophile and a child murderer, and that Jeffrey Epstein is still alive. The lady who got shot to death the other day is an avid follower and retweeter of this person: she died for the cause she loved, foolishly believing internet grifters who claim everything is a communist plot. The Viking guy who stormed the house floor believes he is a spiritual interpreter for a movement that says JFK Jr. is secretly alive and a middle-aged dude in a bowler hat who teamed up with Trump to execute all the Democrats who killed his father. I wish I was joking, all of this accurately reflects what we're talking about here. These are the people whose position we're trying to understand. They don't think Dominion is an election company that changed some votes or whatever, they think Dominion is a communist front run by Cuba and China and the dead former president of Venezuela and Canada (which is just China, they both start with "C", suspicious???) and Hunter Biden. Dominion's entire reason for existing is electing communists like Joe Biden. They believe that not a single Democrat won anywhere in the country, that majority-black areas of the south and majority-Latino areas of LA that vote 85% Democratic are actually Trump strongholds if not for the fraud. Don't pay any mind for why they didn't sue in the other 43 states or why they didn't try to overturn any house elections. This is like understanding why John Hinckley shot Reagan. Literally, he did it because he believed Jodie Foster was sending him psychic messages that she wanted to be with him if only he'd make a grand gesture. But I don't think we can do much if our objective is to try to convince him that he was wrong about that, because he wasn't engaging in a rational analysis of the evidence to begin with.

disgrunt 6y ago

The Dominion claim isn't the only one in Georgia. In fact, most of the lawsuits, two of which are ongoing, are regarding the changes the Georgia Secretary of State made in March 2020 to relax signature matching and ballot curing rules for absentee ballots. Since the Secretary of State is not a part of the legislature, this relaxation is alleged to be unconstitutional. You can find a breakdown of the lawsuits here. [0] There was a hand recount in Georgia. But if the dispute is over the ballots themselves and their veracity, then a recount does little to resolve it. The Georgia Governor has since called for a signature audit, but limited it to Cobb county. Most of the witness affidavits regarding signatures not being verified came out of Fulton county. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-election_lawsuits_related_to_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election_from_Georgia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-election_lawsuits_related...

Mirioron 6y ago
I still don't understand. How does this place the blame on Dominion? It seems like they did their thing right.
- disgrunt 6y ago
  I was answering the other posters question as to why the recount on it's own didn't just resolve the dispute. However, there was a forensic analysis done of a Dominion voting machine in Michigan with some disturbing findings. You can read the report here. [0] > While the allowable election error rate established by the Federal Election Commission (FEC.gov) guidelines is 1 in 250,000 ballots (.0008 percent), ASOG’s forensic analysis observed an error rate of 68.05 percent, which is a significant and fatal error in security and election integrity. > In the ASOG audit, all log entries for the 2020 election cycle were found missing in the Dominion equipment they analyzed—meanwhile voter adjudication logs for previous years exist. Removal of these log files violates state laws and prevents a meaningful audit, even if the Secretary of State’s office wanted to conduct its own audit. > The ASOG audit also discovered software changes on Oct. 23, 2020, and then again on Nov. 5, 2020, just after the election. In accordance with the Help America Vote Act, this violates the 90-day Safe Harbor period which prohibits changes to election systems, without these systems undergoing recertification. [0]: https://beta.documentcloud.org/documents/20423772-antrim-county-forensics-report https://beta.documentcloud.org/documents/20423772-antrim-cou...

Fjolsvith 6y ago

Point to a single court case in the US regarding this election year where evidence was presented in court and judged. Every single case was dismissed on procedural grounds. Edit: At least with this lawsuit we will finally see some evidence.

VikingCoder 6y ago
> Every single case was dismissed on procedural grounds. So, the procedures should have been followed. This is such a simple thing to say, and easy to understand. Except you seem to not accept that. Why not? And the Supreme Court case, they said, even if they'd listened to the case, there would have been no remedy. Meaning, it would have been pointless to listen, but they think by law they should have listened. This says to me that the people filing these cases do not understand the procedures, do not understand the possible remedies, were not acting in good faith. Why doesn't it say that to you?
- disgrunt 6y ago
  Maybe there isn't actually a procedure for this situation? If the highest court in the land says even if the claims turn out to be true there is still no remedy to be had. In other words, even if the election was provably stolen, they won't overturn the result. So what procedure should have been followed? You're accusing attorneys of not acting in good faith or sheer incompetence for not having a firm understanding of an entirely novel legal scenario. The Texas case was, according to reports, hotly debated in private by SCOTUS before they made their decision. Shame you weren't there to educate them on proper procedure.
  - VikingCoder 6y ago
    Yes, I am accusing attorneys of not acting in good faith. One of them literally called for the execution of the Vice President of the United States. [1] Another called for "trial by combat." [2] How tolerant am I supposed to be? > Maybe there isn't actually a procedure for this situation? For the 60 court cases? Yes, there are. > If the highest court in the land says even if the claims turn out to be true there is still no remedy to be had. Actually, that was the dissenting opinion. The decision was that the petition lacked standing. > In other words, even if the election was provably stolen They had 60 chances to prove it was stolen. I have little sympathy for someone who believes that somehow 60 different court cases were simultaneously wrongly decided. Move on to changing the laws, winning the next election. This one is decided. > Shame you weren't there to educate them on proper procedure. I think they came to the right decision. You're the one who wants to educate them. [1] : https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-allies-attack-lin-wood-after-pence-execution-tweets-2021-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-allies-attack-lin-wood... [2] : https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/watch-giuliani-demand-trial-by-combat-to-settle-election.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/watch-giuliani-deman...