5 ms·

Yeah, but there's no context for the new users. I know that a +20 comment score is really good, but I only know this because I've been around for longer than t

by blhack 15y ago

Yeah, but there's no context for the new users. I know that a +20 comment score is really good, but I only know this because I've been around for longer than the removal of the scores. New users wouldn't have this feedback. They might think they're making good contributions at +2-3. People talk about "group think", but when you've got an intelligent group (like HN), a bit of group think can be a good thing.

user24 15y ago
> there's no context Hadn't thought of this. Really good point. How do I know what's a 'good' score if I only have myself to judge against?
tptacek 15y ago
I can see why you'd want feedback that worked this way, but HN comment scores never did. Also, +20 isn't a "really good" comment score. Depending on the thread, it's: * A comment made by someone with name recognition whose comments are read in RSS by 20 people. * A comment on a political thread that states a clear polarizing opinion for people to glom onto. * A mystical winged unicorn "good comment". * A mediocre comment on a buzzy thread ("TechCrunch Says Apple App Store Approval Process Makes iOS Better Than Android!"). My best comments on the site are not, as a rule, my top-scored comments. Meanwhile, public scores clearly do create problems: they promote groupthink, they prod reactionary voting or, worse, reactionary commenting, and they act as nerd pheromones driving tangential discussions to the tops of threads. The harm of public scores outweighs the good, in my opinion. Reasonable people can disagree about that point. But I'm not sure they can disagree that there's nothing bad about public scores (which is not an argument you made).
- wheels 15y ago
  My best comments on the site are not, as a rule, my top-scored comments. My best comments usually get about 5 points. That's because the best things that I write are usually on very specific topics that I know a lot about. However, the way that breaks down is that there's a tiny number of people who also know enough about those things to know if I'm just talking out of my ass or actually saying something useful. And even if they could tell, there's often not enough backstory for someone who doesn't at least have a passing interest in those areas to make sense of them. On the other hand, my 50+ point comments tend to be some combination of well-timed, snarky and generic. Basically, they're the sort of thing that HN wants to discourage. As such I'm generally a fan of the scores being hidden.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    Strong agree. One of my highest-rated comments (inexplicable; I'm embarrassed by it): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2184067 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2184067 Meanwhile, here's a comment I actually had to do research to write. Skim it and take a guess how its karma relates to the previous comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1994085 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1994085 Hint book: ZBER GUNA RVTUG GVZRF YRFF XNEZN.
    - pkteison 15y ago
      Why are you embarassed by the first one? Targeted specific criticism is fantastic and hard to come by. The world needs more "this is bad -and heres why-" and less "yo Dawg I'm just not feeling it Dawg"
      - tptacek 15y ago
        Can we just suffice it to say that I think the scores on these two comments should be --- at least --- reversed?
        jcr 15y ago
        Of course the scores should be reversed on a place called "Hacker News" but you know the reason why the scores are the way they are; As the popularity of this site increases, the average skill set of the users deceases. Your "embarrassing" post is comprehensible to unskilled people, but your beautiful post is well beyond the skills of most users to understand.
    - JoachimSchipper 15y ago
      Perhaps HN actually prefers "infotainment" over genuinely difficult information? Or prefers things that are within or near the shared knowledge to things it knows little about?
      - tptacek 15y ago
- blhack 15y ago
  Here's a comment I made with +41 points: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2556647 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2556647 This isn't a joke, nobody recognizes my name, it's just a comment that I did a bit of research on before posting. I'm sure there are plenty more like this. Of course some comments get upvoted "incorrectly" (A comment on made about "Winklevoss" being a verb got a lot of points). How does hiding the points negate this? In my opinion, it does the opposite. If you can see scores, you can decide that a comment is "high enough" and ignore it.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    Be cruel about someone else's infographic and see if you can't quadruple that score.
mattgreenrocks 15y ago
> People talk about "group think", but when you've got an intelligent group (like HN), a bit of group think can be a good thing. Disagree. Intelligence doesn't undermine groupthink; in fact, the veneer of intelligence seems to make people more prone to groupthink because they'll say, "hey, this group is pretty smart, so they must be right!" Critical thinking is what is necessary, and I don't see enough of that on HN. Also, comment scores are not always indicative of quality, they're indicative of how many people agree. Don't conflate the two. If you want an echo chamber, go to Reddit.
- jeromec 15y ago
  Also, comment scores are not always indicative of quality, they're indicative of how many people agree. I want to go on record as strongly agreeing with this.
jowiar 15y ago
One of the textbook examples of groupthink, used in just about every classroom that covers the topic, is the Challenger explosion. If it's a problem for rocket scientists, nobody is immune.

by blhack 15y ago

user24 15y ago

> there's no context Hadn't thought of this. Really good point. How do I know what's a 'good' score if I only have myself to judge against?

tptacek 15y ago

I can see why you'd want feedback that worked this way, but HN comment scores never did. Also, +20 isn't a "really good" comment score. Depending on the thread, it's: * A comment made by someone with name recognition whose comments are read in RSS by 20 people. * A comment on a political thread that states a clear polarizing opinion for people to glom onto. * A mystical winged unicorn "good comment". * A mediocre comment on a buzzy thread ("TechCrunch Says Apple App Store Approval Process Makes iOS Better Than Android!"). My best comments on the site are not, as a rule, my top-scored comments. Meanwhile, public scores clearly do create problems: they promote groupthink, they prod reactionary voting or, worse, reactionary commenting, and they act as nerd pheromones driving tangential discussions to the tops of threads. The harm of public scores outweighs the good, in my opinion. Reasonable people can disagree about that point. But I'm not sure they can disagree that there's nothing bad about public scores (which is not an argument you made).

wheels 15y ago
My best comments on the site are not, as a rule, my top-scored comments. My best comments usually get about 5 points. That's because the best things that I write are usually on very specific topics that I know a lot about. However, the way that breaks down is that there's a tiny number of people who also know enough about those things to know if I'm just talking out of my ass or actually saying something useful. And even if they could tell, there's often not enough backstory for someone who doesn't at least have a passing interest in those areas to make sense of them. On the other hand, my 50+ point comments tend to be some combination of well-timed, snarky and generic. Basically, they're the sort of thing that HN wants to discourage. As such I'm generally a fan of the scores being hidden.
- tptacek 15y ago
  Strong agree. One of my highest-rated comments (inexplicable; I'm embarrassed by it): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2184067 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2184067 Meanwhile, here's a comment I actually had to do research to write. Skim it and take a guess how its karma relates to the previous comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1994085 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1994085 Hint book: ZBER GUNA RVTUG GVZRF YRFF XNEZN.
  - pkteison 15y ago
    Why are you embarassed by the first one? Targeted specific criticism is fantastic and hard to come by. The world needs more "this is bad -and heres why-" and less "yo Dawg I'm just not feeling it Dawg"
    - tptacek 15y ago
      Can we just suffice it to say that I think the scores on these two comments should be --- at least --- reversed?
      - jcr 15y ago
        Of course the scores should be reversed on a place called "Hacker News" but you know the reason why the scores are the way they are; As the popularity of this site increases, the average skill set of the users deceases. Your "embarrassing" post is comprehensible to unskilled people, but your beautiful post is well beyond the skills of most users to understand.
  - JoachimSchipper 15y ago
    Perhaps HN actually prefers "infotainment" over genuinely difficult information? Or prefers things that are within or near the shared knowledge to things it knows little about?
    - tptacek 15y ago
blhack 15y ago
Here's a comment I made with +41 points: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2556647 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2556647 This isn't a joke, nobody recognizes my name, it's just a comment that I did a bit of research on before posting. I'm sure there are plenty more like this. Of course some comments get upvoted "incorrectly" (A comment on made about "Winklevoss" being a verb got a lot of points). How does hiding the points negate this? In my opinion, it does the opposite. If you can see scores, you can decide that a comment is "high enough" and ignore it.
- tptacek 15y ago
  Be cruel about someone else's infographic and see if you can't quadruple that score.

mattgreenrocks 15y ago

> People talk about "group think", but when you've got an intelligent group (like HN), a bit of group think can be a good thing. Disagree. Intelligence doesn't undermine groupthink; in fact, the veneer of intelligence seems to make people more prone to groupthink because they'll say, "hey, this group is pretty smart, so they must be right!" Critical thinking is what is necessary, and I don't see enough of that on HN. Also, comment scores are not always indicative of quality, they're indicative of how many people agree. Don't conflate the two. If you want an echo chamber, go to Reddit.

jeromec 15y ago
Also, comment scores are not always indicative of quality, they're indicative of how many people agree. I want to go on record as strongly agreeing with this.

jowiar 15y ago

One of the textbook examples of groupthink, used in just about every classroom that covers the topic, is the Challenger explosion. If it's a problem for rocket scientists, nobody is immune.