5 ms·

I have a tiny fraction of the historical expertise of the author, but it has always been clear to me that Martin's books were a sad amalgam of utter misconcepti

I have a tiny fraction of the historical expertise of the author, but it has always been clear to me that Martin's books were a sad amalgam of utter misconceptions and stereotypes: around politics, religion, love, family... Which is fine! Except that it was marketed as "reality based", with "a dash of fantasy". It was irresponsible to say the least, and it's quite sad to see its effects. The author raises an interesting point: how to overcome the hundreds of millions of dollars that back these false depictions, so that truth can have its fair chance of being heard and known? In theory, this is what school is for...

inglor_cz 6y ago
Well. I am a writer and I always try to research as much as possible before delving into a topic. BUT the temptation to just make things up as you write is really strong, especially if you concentrate on characters, where details will get in a way of the narration flow.
- wffurr 6y ago
  Making things up as you write is totally fine! Just don't pretend it's based on actual history and make snarky comments about Aragorn's tax policy.
  - deathlight 6y ago
    And snarky dismissals of Gandalf's resurrection while handing them out like candy in your own story.
watwut 6y ago
> The author raises an interesting point: how to overcome the hundreds of millions of dollars that back these false depictions, so that truth can have its fair chance of being heard and known? I think that blogs like this, readable books about history written by historians of the period (as opposed to pop-sci-writers) are the real answer. Generally raising expectations on what adults say and write by arguing against ahistorical nonsense where possible. I don't think it would be reasonable to force all the kids to learn details of past warfare or sustenance system. I did enjoyed the blogs a lot, but I am 100% sure I would not cared as 12 years old or 16 years old. Plus, there are more important things to learn about history, imo. This being blog by someone who understands history about popular series confronting them with reality.
orange_tee 6y ago
The supposed reality of the series is with regards to the personality of the characters. It's not about the setting.
- Lazare 6y ago
  That would be a strong defence, but I believe GRRM disagrees with you. :) > The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures… Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes… seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy That's a direct quote from Martin. It seems quite clear to me he's not talking about their personality. He has also, more generally, made many claims about historical accuracy particularly when it comes to patterns of violence, economics, and more. Somewhat famously, he criticised Tolkien with a dig about Aragorn's tax policy. I don't believe tax policy, in this context, is an element of Aragorn's personality.
  - xwdv 6y ago
    Did you miss the dash of pure and utter fantasy?
    - Lazare 6y ago
      In my view, the linked article, and the series it is a part of, utterly demolishes the argument that the Dothraki are based on real cultures with a dash of fantasy. If it doesn't convince you, I suspect nothing will.
      - Angostura 6y ago
        I look forward to your critique of dragon biology. It never even occurred to me reading the books that they were anything other than fantasy.
        Mauricebranagh 6y ago
        That was my though and when I read the original books, I thought ok these are inside baseball books for trufans and not for civilians. By that I mean some one widely read in the relevant cannon ie not just read the hobbit LOTR, HP etc, You had read Dunsany, Mort De Authur, Homer
objectivistbrit 6y ago
I think this is rather unfair. This blog offers an alternative perspective: https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/chapter-by-chapter-analysis-daenerys-ii/ https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/chapte... "A second theme we have here is the complication of our view of the Dothraki – presented here as a sophisticated, culturally flexible people who can put on “rich fabrics and sweet perfumes” when they visit their second homes among the palaces of Pentos, yet who still hold to their own culture where everything is done under the open sky." "One of George R.R Martin’s innovations that sadly didn’t make it onto the screen is the way in which he both displays and subverts the traditional fantasy tropes about barbarians and barbarism." "Any fantasy work with a foot in the Middle Ages has to reflect this history. And yet, the line between “Christendom” and “barbarism” was never simple – Medieval Europe was built out of the invasions of Goths, Franks, and Vandals into the Roman Empire, just as Westeros was built out of the invasions of the First Men, Andals, Rhoynar, and Valaryians."

inglor_cz 6y ago

Well. I am a writer and I always try to research as much as possible before delving into a topic. BUT the temptation to just make things up as you write is really strong, especially if you concentrate on characters, where details will get in a way of the narration flow.

wffurr 6y ago
Making things up as you write is totally fine! Just don't pretend it's based on actual history and make snarky comments about Aragorn's tax policy.
- deathlight 6y ago
  And snarky dismissals of Gandalf's resurrection while handing them out like candy in your own story.

watwut 6y ago

> The author raises an interesting point: how to overcome the hundreds of millions of dollars that back these false depictions, so that truth can have its fair chance of being heard and known? I think that blogs like this, readable books about history written by historians of the period (as opposed to pop-sci-writers) are the real answer. Generally raising expectations on what adults say and write by arguing against ahistorical nonsense where possible. I don't think it would be reasonable to force all the kids to learn details of past warfare or sustenance system. I did enjoyed the blogs a lot, but I am 100% sure I would not cared as 12 years old or 16 years old. Plus, there are more important things to learn about history, imo. This being blog by someone who understands history about popular series confronting them with reality.

orange_tee 6y ago

The supposed reality of the series is with regards to the personality of the characters. It's not about the setting.

Lazare 6y ago
That would be a strong defence, but I believe GRRM disagrees with you. :) > The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures… Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes… seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy That's a direct quote from Martin. It seems quite clear to me he's not talking about their personality. He has also, more generally, made many claims about historical accuracy particularly when it comes to patterns of violence, economics, and more. Somewhat famously, he criticised Tolkien with a dig about Aragorn's tax policy. I don't believe tax policy, in this context, is an element of Aragorn's personality.
- xwdv 6y ago
  Did you miss the dash of pure and utter fantasy?
  - Lazare 6y ago
    In my view, the linked article, and the series it is a part of, utterly demolishes the argument that the Dothraki are based on real cultures with a dash of fantasy. If it doesn't convince you, I suspect nothing will.
    - Angostura 6y ago
      I look forward to your critique of dragon biology. It never even occurred to me reading the books that they were anything other than fantasy.
      - Mauricebranagh 6y ago
        That was my though and when I read the original books, I thought ok these are inside baseball books for trufans and not for civilians. By that I mean some one widely read in the relevant cannon ie not just read the hobbit LOTR, HP etc, You had read Dunsany, Mort De Authur, Homer

objectivistbrit 6y ago

I think this is rather unfair. This blog offers an alternative perspective: https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/chapter-by-chapter-analysis-daenerys-ii/ https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/chapte... "A second theme we have here is the complication of our view of the Dothraki – presented here as a sophisticated, culturally flexible people who can put on “rich fabrics and sweet perfumes” when they visit their second homes among the palaces of Pentos, yet who still hold to their own culture where everything is done under the open sky." "One of George R.R Martin’s innovations that sadly didn’t make it onto the screen is the way in which he both displays and subverts the traditional fantasy tropes about barbarians and barbarism." "Any fantasy work with a foot in the Middle Ages has to reflect this history. And yet, the line between “Christendom” and “barbarism” was never simple – Medieval Europe was built out of the invasions of Goths, Franks, and Vandals into the Roman Empire, just as Westeros was built out of the invasions of the First Men, Andals, Rhoynar, and Valaryians."