14 ms·

What if... Apple would've brought iMessage to Android in 2009/2010? I'd bet they'd have the prevalent communication platform nowadays in WA's place...

speeder 6y ago
Problem is iMessage also relies a lot on SMS, an in a lot of countries this is really, really bad (due to crazy prices, Brazil for example where WhatsApp absolutely dominates, has crazy sky high prices for cellphone communications in general, WhatsApp dominance is because people at first used it as "free SMS" and after they got voice calls, people use it as "free phonecalls")
- 8fingerlouie 6y ago
  iMessage only relies on SMS for sending messages to people not using iMessage, and it's rather clear on when it sends messages as SMS instead of iMessage, as the recipient becomes green (before sending) if the message will be sent as SMS. Just like WA/Signal/Whatever, iMessage requires all recipients to use the service, and it just offers the option to send a message as a SMS message in case the recipient is not on iMessage.
  - wodenokoto 6y ago
    I find the mixing of iMessages and sms' in the same app super confusing. Good on you for knowing which color is which, but most of my friends who are fairly good with computers and internet, don't really understand what is going on. I think Google tried the same and the Android audience were less forgiving and I think Android is better off because of that. I would have loved to have SMS and iMessage separate. I use SMS less because of iMessage. When I switched to my Android phone, some people would text me in iMessage and the messages would end up on my iPad, where I had asked for all iMessage notification to be turned off, because I want to receive SMS on my phone.
    - jaywalk 6y ago
      What's confusing about it? I'm honestly confused by your confusion. When I want to message someone, I use Messages. Whether they have an iPhone or not is irrelevant, because that will be handled in the background.
      - ryukafalz 6y ago
        It's relevant when falling back to SMS would cost you $$$. Not something I have to worry about in the US, but I understand some areas are different (a parent comment mentioned Brazil).
        jaywalk 6y ago
        But you know before you even send the message if it will go over iMessage or SMS based on the color.
        faitswulff 6y ago
        wodenokoto’s post specifically mentioned not knowing which color is for which service. That’s the confusing part. I can’t recall off the top of my head, either, so I tend to agree.
        jaywalk 6y ago
        I find it pretty incredible that anyone who posts on HN and uses an iPhone doesn't know blue vs. green. If you go up to any random iPhone user on the street and mention "green texters" there's a very good chance they will know exactly what you're talking about.
        faitswulff 6y ago
        You keep repeating that color does it for you and other people keep repeating that it does not work for them. Suspend your disbelief. This is no Mensa puzzle, people’s brains just work differently.
  - adamcstephens 6y ago
    Except all those others are cross platform. So billions of people can’t use iMessage at all. The default also is to fall back to SMS meaning people would have incurred costs quite easily.
    - selykg 6y ago
      The GP was saying what if iMessage was brought to Android. Now a large number of people would have access to iMessage the same way iOS people do, thus avoiding SMS charges, and becoming blue bubbles with any other iMessage phones. So you've sort of missed the point I think.
    - 8fingerlouie 6y ago
      > The default also is to fall back to SMS meaning people would have incurred costs quite easily. iMessage has an option for disabling SMS fallback. I guess i've never considered it a problem. I've had unlimited voice/SMS for close to a decade. Instead of paying by the minute/SMS/MB, the trend here is instead to use additional services (music, netflix, etc) to keep the prices up. Here in Denmark, a $50/month mobile subscription will get you unlimited voice, SMS, and 20-30GB data, along with Netflix, HBO Nordic and a music service. A basic subscription includes unlimited SMS, <10 hours of voice, and 1-5GB data, and is around $15/month. Usually during summer/christmas i get unlimited data as well for 1-2 months, and from July until new years eve we had unlimited data. It probably has some "fair usage" limit, but i've never hit it. Also, Netflix consumption doesn't count against your data cap, so you could create a wifi hotspot on your phone and stream netflix over 5G all day without using any data at all.
    - mlindner 6y ago
      At least in the US, every major cell phone provider's plans include unlimited texting. So that's not really an issue here.
  - usrusr 6y ago
    Wether you perceive that as "free, with some exceptions" or as "costly, with some exceptions" depends not only on the Apple/Android ratio in your network but also on your general wealth (unless your particular brand of wealth absence is entirely based on general lack of monetary self-control)
- snowwrestler 6y ago
  iMessage does not use SMS at all. It is 100% IP based like WhatsApp. The Messages app on iOS devices can switch to SMS if the iMessage service is not available. It would certainly be possible for Apple to design an iMessage-only client that will not do that. But they don’t want to.
wyldfire 6y ago
What if they did it in 2021? I'd install that app and try to convince my peers to switch from WhatsApp. But realistically, some people pay the iphone premium to avoid the shame (?!!) of green text bubbles.
- ghaff 6y ago
  >to avoid the shame (?!!) Or the cost. I have some limited number of SMS messages on my cell plan and then it's 10 or 20 cents or something like that I think. I don't send many texts so I'm pretty sure I don't normally get hit for fees but someone sending the large number many seem to probably would.
  - notwhereyouare 6y ago
    imessage isn't a text message. It would use a very very little bit of data per message.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      Green messages on an iPhone are messages that weren't sent via iMessage; they were sent via SMS.
      - depingus 6y ago
        That's because the recipient of your message doesn't have iMessage (which is everyone that doesn't have an iPhone). The OP is suggesting that Apple should have brought iMessage to other platforms (Android in particular).
rohan1024 6y ago
How can both Google and Apple cannot have a single rival platform against Facebook? We do have competitors like Twitter, Telegram, Signal but none of them are from Google or Apple. If we had we could have kept Facebook in check. Have they given up on network effect of Facebook's platforms? If they can't solve network effect problem then I wonder how much hope there is for apps like Matrix or Signal. P.s. We do have YouTube from Google but that's an entirely different story.
- bootlooped 6y ago
  It's a moderation nightmare. Facebook is a toxic name to many people. If I were Tim Cook I would leave social networks well alone to keep the Apple brand clean, if for no other reason. I don't think Google+ ever got to the scale where that was an issue.
  - zdkl 6y ago
    They only have to worry about moderation if they host anything. They can keep Apple clean of social networks while endorsing and supporting an open protocol or format for fetching/presentation into a thin client (something like ActivityPub/ActivityStreams, to pick an existing implementation that could make sense to adopt/adapt). I don't know, I think that'd be a very "Apple" thing to do with integrations into the rest of their client side ecosystem.
    - bootlooped 6y ago
      > They only have to worry about moderation if they host anything. I don't think that is the case. At least many users, possibly even most users, would not understand the difference between Apple hosting a social network themselves and Apple promoting a thin client that views decentralized content. If you have an Apple Decentralized Social Networks app, and a parent sees their child viewing objectionable content through that app, a bulk of their ire is going to be directed at Apple; they will likely not even know the name of the entity actually hosting the content. The "we're not actually hosting it so we're not responsible" argument, I don't think it's ever really worked. I don't think it would work in this case. See: torrent websites. I think the benefit to Apple also goes down. They give up control, and for what gain?
fn1 6y ago
Apple sells hardware. They are a hardware company, who realized early on that they need to ship great software to go along with their hardware. They are not interested in new users on devices which don't increase their hardware-sales. They are also not interested in selling your private information. They. sell. hardware.
- mrlala 6y ago
  You know what's funny here? You seem to be actively defending their decision and putting it in the vein of "well they sell hardware so they are going to do anything they can to get you to use their hardware!!". And that's supposed to make it OK? Fuck that logic. As other people have mentioned, if iMessage would have opened up to other platforms it would probably be what everyone uses and would be GOOD FOR EVERYONE. But instead, they wall it to their shit. My mom constantly tells me she doesn't get my text messages from android to her 100% apple ecosystem. I can't do anything about it. It doesn't make any sense, but it's on Apple. They probably even leave these "unfixed issues" to get everyone to move to imessage just so they will buy their hardware. Fuck Apple for their decision on this. Stop defending it. It's a horrible decision.
  - dylan604 6y ago
    Do you feel the same way about not being able to play Nintendo games on a Playstation or an Xbox? I mean how dare they try to operate a business.
    - mrlala 6y ago
      >Do you feel the same way about not being able to play Nintendo games on a Playstation or an Xbox? Yeah, because me trying to text an Apple phone from a non-apple phone is the same thing as trying to play a nintendo game on an xbox. Fuck off dude.
      - dylan604 6y ago
        I'm sorry, but if you are unable to send a text to an Apple device from a non-Apple device, then you must be broken. If you stated that you cannot send an iMessage from a non-Apple device to an Apple device, then you'd be correct. However, an iMessage is not a text. Any text capable device is able to send a text to any other text capable device. If the app one reads those texts is called WhatsApp, iMessage, or ImTooStupidToKnowTheDifference.app, it doesn't matter.
geocar 6y ago
What if Google agreed to license iMessage from Apple? Sure, in 2009 I bet Google thought they had a chance, but it's 2020 and it's easier than ever to convince Android users to drop the privacy-eroding bug-ridden trash that is the Google ecosystem than it was ever before.
- dylan604 6y ago
  er, actually, its 2021 now. gotta retrain that muscle memory to reach for the 1 instead of the 0.
samatman 6y ago
They tried, you know. Apple promoted iMessage as an open standard, Google and Microsoft wanted to go with extensions to MMS. So here we are, off the road not taken.

speeder 6y ago

Problem is iMessage also relies a lot on SMS, an in a lot of countries this is really, really bad (due to crazy prices, Brazil for example where WhatsApp absolutely dominates, has crazy sky high prices for cellphone communications in general, WhatsApp dominance is because people at first used it as "free SMS" and after they got voice calls, people use it as "free phonecalls")

8fingerlouie 6y ago
iMessage only relies on SMS for sending messages to people not using iMessage, and it's rather clear on when it sends messages as SMS instead of iMessage, as the recipient becomes green (before sending) if the message will be sent as SMS. Just like WA/Signal/Whatever, iMessage requires all recipients to use the service, and it just offers the option to send a message as a SMS message in case the recipient is not on iMessage.
- wodenokoto 6y ago
  I find the mixing of iMessages and sms' in the same app super confusing. Good on you for knowing which color is which, but most of my friends who are fairly good with computers and internet, don't really understand what is going on. I think Google tried the same and the Android audience were less forgiving and I think Android is better off because of that. I would have loved to have SMS and iMessage separate. I use SMS less because of iMessage. When I switched to my Android phone, some people would text me in iMessage and the messages would end up on my iPad, where I had asked for all iMessage notification to be turned off, because I want to receive SMS on my phone.
  - jaywalk 6y ago
    What's confusing about it? I'm honestly confused by your confusion. When I want to message someone, I use Messages. Whether they have an iPhone or not is irrelevant, because that will be handled in the background.
    - ryukafalz 6y ago
      It's relevant when falling back to SMS would cost you $$$. Not something I have to worry about in the US, but I understand some areas are different (a parent comment mentioned Brazil).
      - jaywalk 6y ago
        But you know before you even send the message if it will go over iMessage or SMS based on the color.
        faitswulff 6y ago
        wodenokoto’s post specifically mentioned not knowing which color is for which service. That’s the confusing part. I can’t recall off the top of my head, either, so I tend to agree.
        jaywalk 6y ago
        I find it pretty incredible that anyone who posts on HN and uses an iPhone doesn't know blue vs. green. If you go up to any random iPhone user on the street and mention "green texters" there's a very good chance they will know exactly what you're talking about.
        faitswulff 6y ago
        You keep repeating that color does it for you and other people keep repeating that it does not work for them. Suspend your disbelief. This is no Mensa puzzle, people’s brains just work differently.
- adamcstephens 6y ago
  Except all those others are cross platform. So billions of people can’t use iMessage at all. The default also is to fall back to SMS meaning people would have incurred costs quite easily.
  - selykg 6y ago
    The GP was saying what if iMessage was brought to Android. Now a large number of people would have access to iMessage the same way iOS people do, thus avoiding SMS charges, and becoming blue bubbles with any other iMessage phones. So you've sort of missed the point I think.
  - 8fingerlouie 6y ago
    > The default also is to fall back to SMS meaning people would have incurred costs quite easily. iMessage has an option for disabling SMS fallback. I guess i've never considered it a problem. I've had unlimited voice/SMS for close to a decade. Instead of paying by the minute/SMS/MB, the trend here is instead to use additional services (music, netflix, etc) to keep the prices up. Here in Denmark, a $50/month mobile subscription will get you unlimited voice, SMS, and 20-30GB data, along with Netflix, HBO Nordic and a music service. A basic subscription includes unlimited SMS, <10 hours of voice, and 1-5GB data, and is around $15/month. Usually during summer/christmas i get unlimited data as well for 1-2 months, and from July until new years eve we had unlimited data. It probably has some "fair usage" limit, but i've never hit it. Also, Netflix consumption doesn't count against your data cap, so you could create a wifi hotspot on your phone and stream netflix over 5G all day without using any data at all.
  - mlindner 6y ago
    At least in the US, every major cell phone provider's plans include unlimited texting. So that's not really an issue here.
- usrusr 6y ago
  Wether you perceive that as "free, with some exceptions" or as "costly, with some exceptions" depends not only on the Apple/Android ratio in your network but also on your general wealth (unless your particular brand of wealth absence is entirely based on general lack of monetary self-control)
snowwrestler 6y ago
iMessage does not use SMS at all. It is 100% IP based like WhatsApp. The Messages app on iOS devices can switch to SMS if the iMessage service is not available. It would certainly be possible for Apple to design an iMessage-only client that will not do that. But they don’t want to.

wyldfire 6y ago

What if they did it in 2021? I'd install that app and try to convince my peers to switch from WhatsApp. But realistically, some people pay the iphone premium to avoid the shame (?!!) of green text bubbles.

ghaff 6y ago
>to avoid the shame (?!!) Or the cost. I have some limited number of SMS messages on my cell plan and then it's 10 or 20 cents or something like that I think. I don't send many texts so I'm pretty sure I don't normally get hit for fees but someone sending the large number many seem to probably would.
- notwhereyouare 6y ago
  imessage isn't a text message. It would use a very very little bit of data per message.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Green messages on an iPhone are messages that weren't sent via iMessage; they were sent via SMS.
    - depingus 6y ago
      That's because the recipient of your message doesn't have iMessage (which is everyone that doesn't have an iPhone). The OP is suggesting that Apple should have brought iMessage to other platforms (Android in particular).

rohan1024 6y ago

How can both Google and Apple cannot have a single rival platform against Facebook? We do have competitors like Twitter, Telegram, Signal but none of them are from Google or Apple. If we had we could have kept Facebook in check. Have they given up on network effect of Facebook's platforms? If they can't solve network effect problem then I wonder how much hope there is for apps like Matrix or Signal. P.s. We do have YouTube from Google but that's an entirely different story.

bootlooped 6y ago
It's a moderation nightmare. Facebook is a toxic name to many people. If I were Tim Cook I would leave social networks well alone to keep the Apple brand clean, if for no other reason. I don't think Google+ ever got to the scale where that was an issue.
- zdkl 6y ago
  They only have to worry about moderation if they host anything. They can keep Apple clean of social networks while endorsing and supporting an open protocol or format for fetching/presentation into a thin client (something like ActivityPub/ActivityStreams, to pick an existing implementation that could make sense to adopt/adapt). I don't know, I think that'd be a very "Apple" thing to do with integrations into the rest of their client side ecosystem.
  - bootlooped 6y ago
    > They only have to worry about moderation if they host anything. I don't think that is the case. At least many users, possibly even most users, would not understand the difference between Apple hosting a social network themselves and Apple promoting a thin client that views decentralized content. If you have an Apple Decentralized Social Networks app, and a parent sees their child viewing objectionable content through that app, a bulk of their ire is going to be directed at Apple; they will likely not even know the name of the entity actually hosting the content. The "we're not actually hosting it so we're not responsible" argument, I don't think it's ever really worked. I don't think it would work in this case. See: torrent websites. I think the benefit to Apple also goes down. They give up control, and for what gain?

fn1 6y ago

Apple sells hardware. They are a hardware company, who realized early on that they need to ship great software to go along with their hardware. They are not interested in new users on devices which don't increase their hardware-sales. They are also not interested in selling your private information. They. sell. hardware.

mrlala 6y ago
You know what's funny here? You seem to be actively defending their decision and putting it in the vein of "well they sell hardware so they are going to do anything they can to get you to use their hardware!!". And that's supposed to make it OK? Fuck that logic. As other people have mentioned, if iMessage would have opened up to other platforms it would probably be what everyone uses and would be GOOD FOR EVERYONE. But instead, they wall it to their shit. My mom constantly tells me she doesn't get my text messages from android to her 100% apple ecosystem. I can't do anything about it. It doesn't make any sense, but it's on Apple. They probably even leave these "unfixed issues" to get everyone to move to imessage just so they will buy their hardware. Fuck Apple for their decision on this. Stop defending it. It's a horrible decision.
- dylan604 6y ago
  Do you feel the same way about not being able to play Nintendo games on a Playstation or an Xbox? I mean how dare they try to operate a business.
  - mrlala 6y ago
    >Do you feel the same way about not being able to play Nintendo games on a Playstation or an Xbox? Yeah, because me trying to text an Apple phone from a non-apple phone is the same thing as trying to play a nintendo game on an xbox. Fuck off dude.
    - dylan604 6y ago
      I'm sorry, but if you are unable to send a text to an Apple device from a non-Apple device, then you must be broken. If you stated that you cannot send an iMessage from a non-Apple device to an Apple device, then you'd be correct. However, an iMessage is not a text. Any text capable device is able to send a text to any other text capable device. If the app one reads those texts is called WhatsApp, iMessage, or ImTooStupidToKnowTheDifference.app, it doesn't matter.

geocar 6y ago

What if Google agreed to license iMessage from Apple? Sure, in 2009 I bet Google thought they had a chance, but it's 2020 and it's easier than ever to convince Android users to drop the privacy-eroding bug-ridden trash that is the Google ecosystem than it was ever before.

dylan604 6y ago
er, actually, its 2021 now. gotta retrain that muscle memory to reach for the 1 instead of the 0.

samatman 6y ago

They tried, you know. Apple promoted iMessage as an open standard, Google and Microsoft wanted to go with extensions to MMS. So here we are, off the road not taken.