4 ms·

To your first point: If you look at the kind of reaction the Magnitsky Act got from the Kremlin (cf. that meeting with Don Jr to discuss getting rid of it), it

by m12k 6y ago

To your first point: If you look at the kind of reaction the Magnitsky Act got from the Kremlin (cf. that meeting with Don Jr to discuss getting rid of it), it seems that sanctions very much do have an effect on the Putin regime. To your second point: What kind of whataboutism is this? The US does plenty of dirty deeds and should be called out for it by the rest of the world. That's no reason not to do so with Russia as well. I'm currently reading "The Divide", so I happen to recognize all those coups and dirty deeds you mention - and they are terrible, but also completely inpertinent to the question of holding Russia accountable for its actions on the world stage.

buran77 6y ago
> should be called out for it by the rest of the world The rest of the world isn't really calling the US out on this out of fear of retaliation. Why aren't you doing it? Are you also afraid of repercussions inside your own country if you call them out? Knowing it's a crime and keeping quiet makes you complicit. Unless you don't actually care about the crime, just the perpetrator, which invalidates the premise of your comment which was: > A government should not be able to act like that and still get to to interact normally with the rest of international society. Obviously it can. Other government and the hundreds of millions of people they represent prove it.
- deleted 6y ago
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- m12k 6y ago
  > Why aren't you doing it? Are you also afraid of repercussions inside your own country if you call them out? I am, regularly and to anyone that will listen. And no, I live in a western democracy, so I'm not afraid of the repercussions here for doing so. Please stop your unfounded ad hominem attacks. But for the moment I would like to avoid this whataboutism - if a thread pops up criticizing the transgressions of the US rather than Russia, such as is the topic of this one, then I'll gladly participate there too.
  - buran77 6y ago
    > Please stop your unfounded ad hominem attacks With an opening like this: > Can we just designate Russia as a rogue state and sanction the fuck out of them already? I found my comment and question (which was as honest as possible) rather relevant and in no way an ad hominem attack. Based on your comments I highlighted the fact that it's a biased opinion, thus on very shaky ground and open to be challenged. An opinion that follows people/countries rather than actions/facts is not worth the pixels it's displayed with. > completely inpertinent to the question of holding Russia accountable for its actions on the world stage You wave the "whataboutism" flag to get out of any pinch but refuse to accept it's not whataboutism if it hits at your premise. The pertinent reason we can't/shouldn't hold one country (as per your statement) accountable on the world stage is that we don't plan on applying the same treatment fairly to everyone . This degrades the claimed intention of justice, and simply makes this look a blunt tool to be used by some countries against others in order to increase their power, legitimizing any attacks as "defensive" ("They're right to do it after being unfairly punished"). So it's exactly what I said when you "took it personally": we punish the country not the deeds, and this looks less like justice and more like something that justifies any response as defensive. Sure, you can punish selectively with the gun to everyone else's head but it just further strengthens my point. I stand by my challenge and if you feel that taking it personally or claiming whataboutism at every step helps your case feel free to do it. And I'll be clear on my position: all superpowers act the same to keep their power. Which is why none of them has to be allowed to get the upper hand over the others. With no checks and balances there's no superpower that will act "decently". At this point the US is the one on top of the pile trying to increase the distance. This makes me feel uneasy not because of the country (of the 3 I feel most comfortable with them there) but because of that "too much power" issue.
vagrantJin 6y ago
> What kind of whataboutism is this? The US does plenty of dirty deeds and should be called out for it by the rest of the world. If you havent figured out why "the world" doesnt call out the US, then I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps you really do think/believe all that defense spending is just to fight brown people who just a year perviously were herding goats or studying. Maybe you think those gunships and M16s are water cannons and squirt guns respectively. I don't really know. > so I happen to recognize all those coups and dirty deeds you mention - and they are terrible, Do you though? And who must punish the US and what must the punishment be? Last I checked the US isn't accountable to the ICC or the UN. If you can recommend punishment for a sovereign state on the otherside of planet and claim to understand your shortcomings, what punishment do you deserve and how must it be carried out?

by m12k 6y ago

buran77 6y ago

> should be called out for it by the rest of the world The rest of the world isn't really calling the US out on this out of fear of retaliation. Why aren't you doing it? Are you also afraid of repercussions inside your own country if you call them out? Knowing it's a crime and keeping quiet makes you complicit. Unless you don't actually care about the crime, just the perpetrator, which invalidates the premise of your comment which was: > A government should not be able to act like that and still get to to interact normally with the rest of international society. Obviously it can. Other government and the hundreds of millions of people they represent prove it.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
m12k 6y ago
> Why aren't you doing it? Are you also afraid of repercussions inside your own country if you call them out? I am, regularly and to anyone that will listen. And no, I live in a western democracy, so I'm not afraid of the repercussions here for doing so. Please stop your unfounded ad hominem attacks. But for the moment I would like to avoid this whataboutism - if a thread pops up criticizing the transgressions of the US rather than Russia, such as is the topic of this one, then I'll gladly participate there too.
- buran77 6y ago
  > Please stop your unfounded ad hominem attacks With an opening like this: > Can we just designate Russia as a rogue state and sanction the fuck out of them already? I found my comment and question (which was as honest as possible) rather relevant and in no way an ad hominem attack. Based on your comments I highlighted the fact that it's a biased opinion, thus on very shaky ground and open to be challenged. An opinion that follows people/countries rather than actions/facts is not worth the pixels it's displayed with. > completely inpertinent to the question of holding Russia accountable for its actions on the world stage You wave the "whataboutism" flag to get out of any pinch but refuse to accept it's not whataboutism if it hits at your premise. The pertinent reason we can't/shouldn't hold one country (as per your statement) accountable on the world stage is that we don't plan on applying the same treatment fairly to everyone . This degrades the claimed intention of justice, and simply makes this look a blunt tool to be used by some countries against others in order to increase their power, legitimizing any attacks as "defensive" ("They're right to do it after being unfairly punished"). So it's exactly what I said when you "took it personally": we punish the country not the deeds, and this looks less like justice and more like something that justifies any response as defensive. Sure, you can punish selectively with the gun to everyone else's head but it just further strengthens my point. I stand by my challenge and if you feel that taking it personally or claiming whataboutism at every step helps your case feel free to do it. And I'll be clear on my position: all superpowers act the same to keep their power. Which is why none of them has to be allowed to get the upper hand over the others. With no checks and balances there's no superpower that will act "decently". At this point the US is the one on top of the pile trying to increase the distance. This makes me feel uneasy not because of the country (of the 3 I feel most comfortable with them there) but because of that "too much power" issue.

vagrantJin 6y ago

> What kind of whataboutism is this? The US does plenty of dirty deeds and should be called out for it by the rest of the world. If you havent figured out why "the world" doesnt call out the US, then I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps you really do think/believe all that defense spending is just to fight brown people who just a year perviously were herding goats or studying. Maybe you think those gunships and M16s are water cannons and squirt guns respectively. I don't really know. > so I happen to recognize all those coups and dirty deeds you mention - and they are terrible, Do you though? And who must punish the US and what must the punishment be? Last I checked the US isn't accountable to the ICC or the UN. If you can recommend punishment for a sovereign state on the otherside of planet and claim to understand your shortcomings, what punishment do you deserve and how must it be carried out?