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If you think these are bad, you should see the list of things they did during the Cold War. Also, how many other countries behave badly and should be "sanction

If you think these are bad, you should see the list of things they did during the Cold War. Also, how many other countries behave badly and should be "sanctioned the fuck out of"? Once you start looking at each country under a microscope, your list of countries that deviate from "interact normally" is going to get so long that you're really just walling off the G7 from the rest of the world economy - which is something Russia would love us to do.

m12k 6y ago
It should work like the criminal system in most countries do - do a crime, go to prison for X years. Don't do the crime again, and you get to stay out of prison. Sure it might sting a bit until countries learned that doing things like that hurts them more than it gains them. But slightly longer term, the preventive effects should kick in, and we might get some semblance of civility in international affairs. So we wouldn't wall off the G7 from the rest of the world unless they were very stupid and kept committing crimes.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  What would a country "going to prison" involve? Either way, this system is not feasible without basically a UN replacement. Until then, remember the US' long list of crimes before you call for economically crippling the Russian citizens.
  - m12k 6y ago
    Da comrade, we must discuss the US's transgressions before it would make sense to discuss Russia's. Edit: Tostino, in case it wasn't clear, this was meant sarcastically, and I precisely wanted to call out the whataboutism, since that is doing Putin's errand, whether trough ignorance or malice.
    - Tostino 6y ago
      No. It makes sense to discuss Russia's as well as the US's. Stop cutting in while we are doing the former. Start your own thread about how terrible the US is. Stop with the whataboutism.
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      You are calling to "sanction the fuck out of" Russia, not discuss the country. Before wishing suffering and death upon the Russian people, remember that we are guilty of equivalent or worse crimes. Here's a hypothetical. Imagine the the Solarwinds hack had been performed by the NSA against a Russian company and the equivalent sections of government Would you call for sanctions against the US?
      - m12k 6y ago
        Yes, I believe all countries that invade, murder or interfere in elections should be sanctioned by the rest of the world in proportion to their transgression. There should be a club for those who play by the rules - and those who don't shouldn't get invited. Practically speaking, currently the rest of the world is too dependent on the US and China to be able to effectively sanction them, and I also hope this will change in the future, because sanctions sure are justified. I wish no suffering upon the Russian people, but they are the only ones that can legitimately (i.e. without invasions) replace their government with one that will play by the rules of international law. The rest of the world has no right to change their government, but we do have a choice of whether we will trade with them or not. So yes, basically any government that acts like a terrorist organization should have the same sanctions heaped on them. And finally, the Magnitsky Act shows that we can actually effectively target those in power in Russia without unduly targeting the economy of the Russian people - so I concede that pursuing that line first would be in order for humanitarian reasons. We're already doing these things with North Korea and Iran. I don't see any compelling argument why the actions of the Russian government shouldn't land them in the same boat.
        theflyinghorse 6y ago
        > There should be a club for those who play by the rules - and those who don't shouldn't get invited What are the rules and who writes them? Is supporting hardliner religious fighters in Syria against a dictator but also against every minority is "playing by the rules" or not?
        m12k 6y ago

m12k 6y ago

It should work like the criminal system in most countries do - do a crime, go to prison for X years. Don't do the crime again, and you get to stay out of prison. Sure it might sting a bit until countries learned that doing things like that hurts them more than it gains them. But slightly longer term, the preventive effects should kick in, and we might get some semblance of civility in international affairs. So we wouldn't wall off the G7 from the rest of the world unless they were very stupid and kept committing crimes.

boomboomsubban 6y ago
What would a country "going to prison" involve? Either way, this system is not feasible without basically a UN replacement. Until then, remember the US' long list of crimes before you call for economically crippling the Russian citizens.
- m12k 6y ago
  Da comrade, we must discuss the US's transgressions before it would make sense to discuss Russia's. Edit: Tostino, in case it wasn't clear, this was meant sarcastically, and I precisely wanted to call out the whataboutism, since that is doing Putin's errand, whether trough ignorance or malice.
  - Tostino 6y ago
    No. It makes sense to discuss Russia's as well as the US's. Stop cutting in while we are doing the former. Start your own thread about how terrible the US is. Stop with the whataboutism.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    You are calling to "sanction the fuck out of" Russia, not discuss the country. Before wishing suffering and death upon the Russian people, remember that we are guilty of equivalent or worse crimes. Here's a hypothetical. Imagine the the Solarwinds hack had been performed by the NSA against a Russian company and the equivalent sections of government Would you call for sanctions against the US?
    - m12k 6y ago
      Yes, I believe all countries that invade, murder or interfere in elections should be sanctioned by the rest of the world in proportion to their transgression. There should be a club for those who play by the rules - and those who don't shouldn't get invited. Practically speaking, currently the rest of the world is too dependent on the US and China to be able to effectively sanction them, and I also hope this will change in the future, because sanctions sure are justified. I wish no suffering upon the Russian people, but they are the only ones that can legitimately (i.e. without invasions) replace their government with one that will play by the rules of international law. The rest of the world has no right to change their government, but we do have a choice of whether we will trade with them or not. So yes, basically any government that acts like a terrorist organization should have the same sanctions heaped on them. And finally, the Magnitsky Act shows that we can actually effectively target those in power in Russia without unduly targeting the economy of the Russian people - so I concede that pursuing that line first would be in order for humanitarian reasons. We're already doing these things with North Korea and Iran. I don't see any compelling argument why the actions of the Russian government shouldn't land them in the same boat.
      - theflyinghorse 6y ago
        > There should be a club for those who play by the rules - and those who don't shouldn't get invited What are the rules and who writes them? Is supporting hardliner religious fighters in Syria against a dictator but also against every minority is "playing by the rules" or not?
        m12k 6y ago