4 ms·

Collections: That Dothraki Horde, Part IV: Screamers and Howlers

50 points by Illniyar 6y ago

RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
>The position of ‘Indians’ as particularly ‘rapey’ is also explicit in Stagecoach, I think historically, invading/raiding soldiers were always ‘rapey’. One only needs to look at the Romans, the Vikings, the French in Spain, and more recently the Japanese, Germans, and Soviets in WWII. Being on the losing side in a battle or war sucked, even if you were a civilian.
- watwut 6y ago
  Armies are rapey, more or less depending on kid od war. But they are rarely so rapey, that you routinely save last bullet for women cause they are guaranteed to be gang raped. Also, I think that part of argument is that you don't see Indian woman being at such severe risk of being gang raped from random white soldiers in Hollywood movies.
- ncmncm 6y ago
  Armies are rapey, but there are differences. The Soviet army during WWII, in particular, was very, very officially rapey: anyone who had coexisted with any enemy army were obvious collaborators, and were therefore by direct order from Stalin to get the worst treatment that could be afforded. For female people of any age at all, that meant gang rape followed by murder. Of course it was not only women who suffered and died: failing to demonstrate peak enthusiasm for the above was itself fatal. Soviet soldiers who had been captured and somehow survived (Germans routinely starved them) were considered, exactly, deserters (because why were they alive?), and were sent directly to the gulags. Bringing up the rear during an advance got you shot in the back by the NKVD -- although there is no documentary evidence of an actual quota.
etamponi 6y ago
I have a tiny fraction of the historical expertise of the author, but it has always been clear to me that Martin's books were a sad amalgam of utter misconceptions and stereotypes: around politics, religion, love, family... Which is fine! Except that it was marketed as "reality based", with "a dash of fantasy". It was irresponsible to say the least, and it's quite sad to see its effects. The author raises an interesting point: how to overcome the hundreds of millions of dollars that back these false depictions, so that truth can have its fair chance of being heard and known? In theory, this is what school is for...
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  Well. I am a writer and I always try to research as much as possible before delving into a topic. BUT the temptation to just make things up as you write is really strong, especially if you concentrate on characters, where details will get in a way of the narration flow.
  - wffurr 6y ago
    Making things up as you write is totally fine! Just don't pretend it's based on actual history and make snarky comments about Aragorn's tax policy.
    - deathlight 6y ago
      And snarky dismissals of Gandalf's resurrection while handing them out like candy in your own story.
- watwut 6y ago
  > The author raises an interesting point: how to overcome the hundreds of millions of dollars that back these false depictions, so that truth can have its fair chance of being heard and known? I think that blogs like this, readable books about history written by historians of the period (as opposed to pop-sci-writers) are the real answer. Generally raising expectations on what adults say and write by arguing against ahistorical nonsense where possible. I don't think it would be reasonable to force all the kids to learn details of past warfare or sustenance system. I did enjoyed the blogs a lot, but I am 100% sure I would not cared as 12 years old or 16 years old. Plus, there are more important things to learn about history, imo. This being blog by someone who understands history about popular series confronting them with reality.
- orange_tee 6y ago
  The supposed reality of the series is with regards to the personality of the characters. It's not about the setting.
  - 6y ago
amyjess 6y ago
So if anyone wants to see a more respectful counterpart culture to the Mongols, I'd recommend looking into the Xaela from Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood. They've never claimed in the slightest to be historically accurate, but their cultural practices are surprisingly well-researched, and more importantly the Xaela are written as fundamentally decent people and not a vicious unrelenting horde of uncivilized barbarians. I found an excellent twitter thread on this a while back... unfortunately it appears to be gone, but I was able to find some of it in the Wayback Machine... http://web.archive.org/web/20200715161430/https://twitter.com/doritolizards/status/1283413649755963395 http://web.archive.org/web/20200715161430/https://twitter.co... [make sure to scroll both up and down, this is the archive link I found that had the most of the original thread, and it's kind of in the middle]
billfruit 6y ago
Not exactly related, but the recent Amazon Prime series "El Cid" is surprisingly good, especially if you thought that GoT lacked development of themes on how religion played such a major role in medieval politics.

50 points by Illniyar 6y ago

>The position of ‘Indians’ as particularly ‘rapey’ is also explicit in Stagecoach, I think historically, invading/raiding soldiers were always ‘rapey’. One only needs to look at the Romans, the Vikings, the French in Spain, and more recently the Japanese, Germans, and Soviets in WWII. Being on the losing side in a battle or war sucked, even if you were a civilian.

watwut 6y ago
Armies are rapey, more or less depending on kid od war. But they are rarely so rapey, that you routinely save last bullet for women cause they are guaranteed to be gang raped. Also, I think that part of argument is that you don't see Indian woman being at such severe risk of being gang raped from random white soldiers in Hollywood movies.
ncmncm 6y ago
Armies are rapey, but there are differences. The Soviet army during WWII, in particular, was very, very officially rapey: anyone who had coexisted with any enemy army were obvious collaborators, and were therefore by direct order from Stalin to get the worst treatment that could be afforded. For female people of any age at all, that meant gang rape followed by murder. Of course it was not only women who suffered and died: failing to demonstrate peak enthusiasm for the above was itself fatal. Soviet soldiers who had been captured and somehow survived (Germans routinely starved them) were considered, exactly, deserters (because why were they alive?), and were sent directly to the gulags. Bringing up the rear during an advance got you shot in the back by the NKVD -- although there is no documentary evidence of an actual quota.

etamponi 6y ago

I have a tiny fraction of the historical expertise of the author, but it has always been clear to me that Martin's books were a sad amalgam of utter misconceptions and stereotypes: around politics, religion, love, family... Which is fine! Except that it was marketed as "reality based", with "a dash of fantasy". It was irresponsible to say the least, and it's quite sad to see its effects. The author raises an interesting point: how to overcome the hundreds of millions of dollars that back these false depictions, so that truth can have its fair chance of being heard and known? In theory, this is what school is for...

inglor_cz 6y ago
Well. I am a writer and I always try to research as much as possible before delving into a topic. BUT the temptation to just make things up as you write is really strong, especially if you concentrate on characters, where details will get in a way of the narration flow.
- wffurr 6y ago
  Making things up as you write is totally fine! Just don't pretend it's based on actual history and make snarky comments about Aragorn's tax policy.
  - deathlight 6y ago
    And snarky dismissals of Gandalf's resurrection while handing them out like candy in your own story.
watwut 6y ago
> The author raises an interesting point: how to overcome the hundreds of millions of dollars that back these false depictions, so that truth can have its fair chance of being heard and known? I think that blogs like this, readable books about history written by historians of the period (as opposed to pop-sci-writers) are the real answer. Generally raising expectations on what adults say and write by arguing against ahistorical nonsense where possible. I don't think it would be reasonable to force all the kids to learn details of past warfare or sustenance system. I did enjoyed the blogs a lot, but I am 100% sure I would not cared as 12 years old or 16 years old. Plus, there are more important things to learn about history, imo. This being blog by someone who understands history about popular series confronting them with reality.
orange_tee 6y ago
The supposed reality of the series is with regards to the personality of the characters. It's not about the setting.
- 6y ago

amyjess 6y ago

So if anyone wants to see a more respectful counterpart culture to the Mongols, I'd recommend looking into the Xaela from Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood. They've never claimed in the slightest to be historically accurate, but their cultural practices are surprisingly well-researched, and more importantly the Xaela are written as fundamentally decent people and not a vicious unrelenting horde of uncivilized barbarians. I found an excellent twitter thread on this a while back... unfortunately it appears to be gone, but I was able to find some of it in the Wayback Machine... http://web.archive.org/web/20200715161430/https://twitter.com/doritolizards/status/1283413649755963395 http://web.archive.org/web/20200715161430/https://twitter.co... [make sure to scroll both up and down, this is the archive link I found that had the most of the original thread, and it's kind of in the middle]

billfruit 6y ago

Not exactly related, but the recent Amazon Prime series "El Cid" is surprisingly good, especially if you thought that GoT lacked development of themes on how religion played such a major role in medieval politics.