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That is, assuming anyone in law enforcement actually cares about identifying these people. Given that they could have simply not let them out and arrested them

by ATsch 6y ago

That is, assuming anyone in law enforcement actually cares about identifying these people. Given that they could have simply not let them out and arrested them as was done with black protestors instead of politely showing them the door, that seems a bit unlikely.

peteretep 6y ago
> assuming anyone in law enforcement actually cares about identifying these people Law enforcement is hardly a homogenous group. We're not talking about a State Trooper deciding whether or not to go after him here. We're talking about the Secret Service and FBI who probably feel accutely embarassed this happened on their watch, and are about to be run by allies of the man these protests were essentially targeting.
- ATsch 6y ago
  How homogeneous of a group they are is irrelevant when they are all driven by the same incentives. The first people that benefit from increases in Authoritarianism are the police. The insurrectionists they are supposed to persecute are the very ones fighting the people that are calling for limiting the influence of the police. Police unions almost universally support Trump. They have everything to gain and little to lose from this.
  - peteretep 6y ago
    > The first people that benefit from increases in Authoritarianism are the police This is not historical. Regular police are usually marginalized pretty quickly in favour of paramilitary goons, while still having to deal with the people, and then having to enforce very unpopular laws in the communities they're from. If you think being po-po in China, Russia, Iran, or Belarus is a high-status or job filled with perks, I have a bridge to sell you.
    - ATsch 6y ago
      I'm sorry, where were you when the authoritarian shift from the "war on terror" and "war on drugs", spearheaded by the american right, balooned police budgets and was used to justify massively arming the police and giving them the right to stop and detain nearly anyone? If you don't agree with that, I guess there's still the fact that the US left has vocally called for a major dismantling of the police and removal of many of their protections this summer. If you don't believe the scales were tipped long ago, that should definitely have done it.
      - peteretep 6y ago
        > where were you when the authoritarian shift from the "war on terror" and "war on drugs" In parts of the world where "authoritarianism" has a different meaning from where you are, apparently.
        ATsch 6y ago
        I like your extremely selective responses, just responding to a strawmanned half sentence. Of course, it's only ever authoritarianism when the others do it. Interestingly, the George Floyd protests actually caused an order of magnitude more deaths by police than the months of protests in Hong Kong. That isn't the whole picture of course, but it is enlightening how only one of these events is regularly described as authorization. Always the exception.
        peteretep 6y ago
        > but it is enlightening how only one of these events is regularly described as authoritarianism That's because authoritarianism is: "a form of government characterized by the rejection of political plurality, the use of a strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting" Hong Kong has great police. The problem for Hong Kongers is that they're in service of an authoritarian government. The US has terrible police, but that's not because of authoritarianism.
        6y ago
  - tzs 6y ago
    Trump has suggested that the FBI may have helped rig the election against him, and has generally been pretty critical of them for years. A lot of the insurrectionists think the FBI is part of the anti-Trump deep state that the insurrectionists want to tear down, at least judging from what I've seen from the talk on sites like Parler among people who were saying they were going to be going to the Washington event. I doubt that the FBI is going to have any sympathy for the insurrectionists.
smitty1110 6y ago
Ah, but the feds are involved, and arrests for this seems like a great way to win points with the majorities in Congress. Budget season is coming up, gotta pad your accomplishments!
- ATsch 6y ago
  That's a good point, the ideal strategy might be to do little to stop the events and then later start public high impact investigations and arrests for a few of the involved.
  - tarboreus 6y ago
    This is what will happen. Arresting them on the spot would have been a mistake for a few reasons (optics for a larger, volatile group, muddying the waters for condermnations of the invasion). Trump is still president for two weeks. I think we'll see action on this on January 21st.
mariuolo 6y ago
> arrested them as was done with black protestors instead of politely showing them the door If they had barely the means to repel them, what makes you think they could have arrested them?
- ATsch 6y ago
  Having insufficient means to repel people didn't seem to be an issue this summer.
fencepost 6y ago
I'll note that at this point one officer has died after apparently being beaten with a fire extinguisher. Regardless of politics, I'm pretty sure just about everyone in law enforcement has strong feelings about cop killers and anyone associated with them.

by ATsch 6y ago

peteretep 6y ago

> assuming anyone in law enforcement actually cares about identifying these people Law enforcement is hardly a homogenous group. We're not talking about a State Trooper deciding whether or not to go after him here. We're talking about the Secret Service and FBI who probably feel accutely embarassed this happened on their watch, and are about to be run by allies of the man these protests were essentially targeting.

ATsch 6y ago
How homogeneous of a group they are is irrelevant when they are all driven by the same incentives. The first people that benefit from increases in Authoritarianism are the police. The insurrectionists they are supposed to persecute are the very ones fighting the people that are calling for limiting the influence of the police. Police unions almost universally support Trump. They have everything to gain and little to lose from this.
- peteretep 6y ago
  > The first people that benefit from increases in Authoritarianism are the police This is not historical. Regular police are usually marginalized pretty quickly in favour of paramilitary goons, while still having to deal with the people, and then having to enforce very unpopular laws in the communities they're from. If you think being po-po in China, Russia, Iran, or Belarus is a high-status or job filled with perks, I have a bridge to sell you.
  - ATsch 6y ago
    I'm sorry, where were you when the authoritarian shift from the "war on terror" and "war on drugs", spearheaded by the american right, balooned police budgets and was used to justify massively arming the police and giving them the right to stop and detain nearly anyone? If you don't agree with that, I guess there's still the fact that the US left has vocally called for a major dismantling of the police and removal of many of their protections this summer. If you don't believe the scales were tipped long ago, that should definitely have done it.
    - peteretep 6y ago
      > where were you when the authoritarian shift from the "war on terror" and "war on drugs" In parts of the world where "authoritarianism" has a different meaning from where you are, apparently.
      - ATsch 6y ago
        I like your extremely selective responses, just responding to a strawmanned half sentence. Of course, it's only ever authoritarianism when the others do it. Interestingly, the George Floyd protests actually caused an order of magnitude more deaths by police than the months of protests in Hong Kong. That isn't the whole picture of course, but it is enlightening how only one of these events is regularly described as authorization. Always the exception.
        peteretep 6y ago
        > but it is enlightening how only one of these events is regularly described as authoritarianism That's because authoritarianism is: "a form of government characterized by the rejection of political plurality, the use of a strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting" Hong Kong has great police. The problem for Hong Kongers is that they're in service of an authoritarian government. The US has terrible police, but that's not because of authoritarianism.
        6y ago
- tzs 6y ago
  Trump has suggested that the FBI may have helped rig the election against him, and has generally been pretty critical of them for years. A lot of the insurrectionists think the FBI is part of the anti-Trump deep state that the insurrectionists want to tear down, at least judging from what I've seen from the talk on sites like Parler among people who were saying they were going to be going to the Washington event. I doubt that the FBI is going to have any sympathy for the insurrectionists.

smitty1110 6y ago

Ah, but the feds are involved, and arrests for this seems like a great way to win points with the majorities in Congress. Budget season is coming up, gotta pad your accomplishments!

ATsch 6y ago
That's a good point, the ideal strategy might be to do little to stop the events and then later start public high impact investigations and arrests for a few of the involved.
- tarboreus 6y ago
  This is what will happen. Arresting them on the spot would have been a mistake for a few reasons (optics for a larger, volatile group, muddying the waters for condermnations of the invasion). Trump is still president for two weeks. I think we'll see action on this on January 21st.

mariuolo 6y ago

> arrested them as was done with black protestors instead of politely showing them the door If they had barely the means to repel them, what makes you think they could have arrested them?

ATsch 6y ago
Having insufficient means to repel people didn't seem to be an issue this summer.

fencepost 6y ago

I'll note that at this point one officer has died after apparently being beaten with a fire extinguisher. Regardless of politics, I'm pretty sure just about everyone in law enforcement has strong feelings about cop killers and anyone associated with them.