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> Even better if they can also track down organizers There is video of the rally prior where Trump, his son, Rudy Giuliani and others were inciting the mob to

> Even better if they can also track down organizers There is video of the rally prior where Trump, his son, Rudy Giuliani and others were inciting the mob to violence.

zaroth 6y ago
This is exactly what every good fascist says when their opponent speaks at political rallies. If you can’t see both sides of the coin, why play around at flipping it?
- vkou 6y ago
  Have just hit peak cultural relativism, where identifying the organizers of a fascist coup is the same thing as being a fascist?
  - zaroth 6y ago
    I think we’re making the same point, but “organizers of a fascist coup” is a bit rich. What we saw yesterday will be properly charged as entering a restricted building, violent entry and disorderly conduct on capitol grounds, in limited cases assault on a federal law enforcement officer, and in a single digit number of cases, second degree murder. No charges will be laid for sedition, treason, or insurrection. Despite what you might read on CNN. I would say the same thing for all the rioting that happened last year. Even though city blocks were illegally cordoned off and occupied for weeks. Just my prediction.
    - vkou 6y ago
      1. The overwhelming majority of protests in city blocks did not at all prevent the lawful operation of government or businesses (And those that have did so in a rather limited way). So far, this one is batting one thousand. Congress had to be evacuated. Its operations had to stop, as its members were instructed to shelter in place. 2. I disagree that those are proper charges. Context matters. A mob showing up at the capitol and smashing a few windows from the outside when nothing of note is happening is disorderly conduct. A mob showing up at congress in the middle of a certification of an election, spurred on by cries that the election is stolen, and we need to do something, where members of the mob think they are participating in a revolution... Is a coup. It's a naked attempt to prevent a lawful transfer of power. Just because it's a failed coup doesn't make it anything less than a coup.
      - zaroth 6y ago
        If you really think that no buildings had to be evacuated during BLM protests I’m not sure what news you’ve been watching or why you want to participate in this discussion. 1. Police stations were burned to the ground. Federal courthouse under sustained assault for months. $2 billion in property damage, thousands of police injured. 2. Those are what people have actually been charged with yesterday. Similarly, just because a BLM protestor is screaming kill all cops! while throwing rocks at a police car, it doesn’t make an attempted murder charge appropriate. Nor should everyone standing around chanting the same thing in the vicinity be charged with attempted murder. All I ask is for a little logical consistency instead of the absurd political flame war.
    - chillwaves 6y ago
      They stopped an election process at behest of the loser, by invading Congress - a branch of government that was seen as not sympathetic to Trump's desire to overturn the election. He literally spoke to them right before the event, and insinuated they should take direct action, then waited for hours until he asked them to leave (while still claiming fraud and that their country was being stolen). It's really annoying to have to point out this obvious context over and over to the people who are minimizing what happened.
      - zaroth 6y ago
        If you have the transcript of what Trump said in his address before the protesters marched to the Capital building, I’d appreciate you pointing out the part which you think violates strict scrutiny under the 1st Amendment for “fighting words”. The word “coup” doesn’t mean what you think it does. Interrupting a political process is not a coup. Protesting an election result is not a coup. Trespassing in the Capital building is not a coup. Posing for selfies and stealing Peliso’s lecturn is not a coup. And doing all 4 of these things at once is not a coup. What it is? Mostly? Just extremely embarrassing for the people in power and the people who were supposed to protect them. Calling it a coup mostly just covers for the raging embarrassment of being owned by Half Naked Viking Man.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        chillwaves 6y ago
        You did not dispute a single thing I said. All you did was drop your standards to the ground. I hope you are proud of what you are defending.
        zaroth 6y ago
        You’re mistaken if you think I’m defending what happened at the Capital yesterday. I am an ardent supporter of the right to peacefully protest. I am against any form of violent protest, and as a matter of scale, I’m much more offended by the dozens killed, hundreds maimed, and billions of dollars of damages over the summer than what happened yesterday. The framing of this particular riot as a coup is nothing but a duplicitous political flame war, and I see the politicization of this riot is a coup versus that riot is a mostly peaceful protest as a dangerous gaslighting of the American people.

> Even better if they can also track down organizers There is video of the rally prior where Trump, his son, Rudy Giuliani and others were inciting the mob to violence.

zaroth 6y ago

This is exactly what every good fascist says when their opponent speaks at political rallies. If you can’t see both sides of the coin, why play around at flipping it?

vkou 6y ago
Have just hit peak cultural relativism, where identifying the organizers of a fascist coup is the same thing as being a fascist?
- zaroth 6y ago
  I think we’re making the same point, but “organizers of a fascist coup” is a bit rich. What we saw yesterday will be properly charged as entering a restricted building, violent entry and disorderly conduct on capitol grounds, in limited cases assault on a federal law enforcement officer, and in a single digit number of cases, second degree murder. No charges will be laid for sedition, treason, or insurrection. Despite what you might read on CNN. I would say the same thing for all the rioting that happened last year. Even though city blocks were illegally cordoned off and occupied for weeks. Just my prediction.
  - vkou 6y ago
    1. The overwhelming majority of protests in city blocks did not at all prevent the lawful operation of government or businesses (And those that have did so in a rather limited way). So far, this one is batting one thousand. Congress had to be evacuated. Its operations had to stop, as its members were instructed to shelter in place. 2. I disagree that those are proper charges. Context matters. A mob showing up at the capitol and smashing a few windows from the outside when nothing of note is happening is disorderly conduct. A mob showing up at congress in the middle of a certification of an election, spurred on by cries that the election is stolen, and we need to do something, where members of the mob think they are participating in a revolution... Is a coup. It's a naked attempt to prevent a lawful transfer of power. Just because it's a failed coup doesn't make it anything less than a coup.
    - zaroth 6y ago
      If you really think that no buildings had to be evacuated during BLM protests I’m not sure what news you’ve been watching or why you want to participate in this discussion. 1. Police stations were burned to the ground. Federal courthouse under sustained assault for months. $2 billion in property damage, thousands of police injured. 2. Those are what people have actually been charged with yesterday. Similarly, just because a BLM protestor is screaming kill all cops! while throwing rocks at a police car, it doesn’t make an attempted murder charge appropriate. Nor should everyone standing around chanting the same thing in the vicinity be charged with attempted murder. All I ask is for a little logical consistency instead of the absurd political flame war.
  - chillwaves 6y ago
    They stopped an election process at behest of the loser, by invading Congress - a branch of government that was seen as not sympathetic to Trump's desire to overturn the election. He literally spoke to them right before the event, and insinuated they should take direct action, then waited for hours until he asked them to leave (while still claiming fraud and that their country was being stolen). It's really annoying to have to point out this obvious context over and over to the people who are minimizing what happened.
    - zaroth 6y ago
      If you have the transcript of what Trump said in his address before the protesters marched to the Capital building, I’d appreciate you pointing out the part which you think violates strict scrutiny under the 1st Amendment for “fighting words”. The word “coup” doesn’t mean what you think it does. Interrupting a political process is not a coup. Protesting an election result is not a coup. Trespassing in the Capital building is not a coup. Posing for selfies and stealing Peliso’s lecturn is not a coup. And doing all 4 of these things at once is not a coup. What it is? Mostly? Just extremely embarrassing for the people in power and the people who were supposed to protect them. Calling it a coup mostly just covers for the raging embarrassment of being owned by Half Naked Viking Man.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - chillwaves 6y ago
        You did not dispute a single thing I said. All you did was drop your standards to the ground. I hope you are proud of what you are defending.
        zaroth 6y ago
        You’re mistaken if you think I’m defending what happened at the Capital yesterday. I am an ardent supporter of the right to peacefully protest. I am against any form of violent protest, and as a matter of scale, I’m much more offended by the dozens killed, hundreds maimed, and billions of dollars of damages over the summer than what happened yesterday. The framing of this particular riot as a coup is nothing but a duplicitous political flame war, and I see the politicization of this riot is a coup versus that riot is a mostly peaceful protest as a dangerous gaslighting of the American people.