5 ms·

You should probably mention Portland, Seattle, Kenosha, Chicago, New York as well. The other kind of insurrectionists seem to also have little to fear from the

You should probably mention Portland, Seattle, Kenosha, Chicago, New York as well. The other kind of insurrectionists seem to also have little to fear from the law.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Jtsummers 6y ago
There's a bit of a difference between people gathering and protesting or even rioting in <various big cities around US> and actually storming the US Capitol Building during the tally of Electoral College votes with the intention of, somehow in their twisted minds, preventing that tally and succession to the next democratically elected president.
- jhardy54 6y ago
  Wow, what a double-standard. Why is it that the left is allowed to express themselves through protest and civil disobedience but the right can't plant bombs and try to kidnap senators when they don't like the outcome of an election? /s
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - disgrunt 6y ago
    > Why is it that the left is allowed to express themselves through protest and civil disobedience... By burning down police precincts and courthouses. Oh, and shooting cops. Those rascals.
    - epistasis 6y ago
      Because of the difficulty of seeing sarcasm on the internet, I think it's worth pointing out that it was a far-right Boogaloo Boy that murdered a cop in California during a standoff, and was in text communication with another Boogaloo boy that is charged with arson in the burning of the Minneapolis police precinct: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo-boi-minneapolis-police-building-george-floyd https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo... They have been trying to start a race war and were performing false flag violence to further their aims.
      - disgrunt 6y ago
        And what about these five police officers killed in Dallas during a BLM protest? [0] [0]: https://fox11online.com/on-fox-11/gallery/pofficers-shot-at-protest-in-dallas-reports https://fox11online.com/on-fox-11/gallery/pofficers-shot-at-...
        epistasis 6y ago
        The one in 2016? Yes, that was really awful. But when talking about the specific pair of burning down a police precinct and murder of law enforcement I think the reference is to the Boogaloo Bois. Unless your "what about" has a more specific point that you could make more clear for me.
- buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
  Sounds like you really want them to be different, at the very least.
  - epistasis 6y ago
    One of the movements is petitioning the government for change. The counter-movement is plotting to kidnap politicians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_pl...
- eej71 6y ago
  The MAGA flavored anarchists and nihilists who stormed the US Capitol Building will hopefully be brought up on as many felonies as possible, tried in court, and ideally spend some real time in a real jail. Even better if they can also track down organizers - who perhaps weren't there - and charge them with racketeering or sedition. It was evil and it needs to be halted. I also think the same thing needs to happen to the antifa flavored anarchists we were witness to throughout the summer. The endless attacks on businesses (big and small), federal buildings, lawlessness, looting, storming police precints, portland city council buildings, and general destruction should also result in as many felonies as possible. Both groups "think" that sheer muscle and raw emotionalism in the street is a legitimate way to bully your preferred changes through. It's the same evil mindset and it needs to be called out and punished regardless of what flag they appear to operate under.
  - chillwaves 6y ago
    > Even better if they can also track down organizers There is video of the rally prior where Trump, his son, Rudy Giuliani and others were inciting the mob to violence.
    - zaroth 6y ago
      This is exactly what every good fascist says when their opponent speaks at political rallies. If you can’t see both sides of the coin, why play around at flipping it?
      - vkou 6y ago
        Have just hit peak cultural relativism, where identifying the organizers of a fascist coup is the same thing as being a fascist?
        zaroth 6y ago
        I think we’re making the same point, but “organizers of a fascist coup” is a bit rich. What we saw yesterday will be properly charged as entering a restricted building, violent entry and disorderly conduct on capitol grounds, in limited cases assault on a federal law enforcement officer, and in a single digit number of cases, second degree murder. No charges will be laid for sedition, treason, or insurrection. Despite what you might read on CNN. I would say the same thing for all the rioting that happened last year. Even though city blocks were illegally cordoned off and occupied for weeks. Just my prediction.
- gwright 6y ago
  So you are saying that the difference is such that one group should not be prosecuted and the other group should? What criteria are you using to differentiate? Storming government buildings other than the Capital is OK? How about we just prosecute everyone who breaks the law?
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    > So you are saying that the difference is such that one group should not be prosecuted and the other group should? What criteria are you using to differentiate? Storming government buildings other than the Capital is OK? I said nothing of the sort and I don't know how you would interpret my words that way. From the poster I responded to: > The other kind of insurrectionists seem to also have little to fear from the law My response was about the notion that protesters and rioters this summer were "insurrectionists", they were not. At least not as a general rule. Some of them, maybe, probably always are in political protests. But most of them were there to either create havoc (rioters) or protest for change to the way policing is conducted in the US (the protestors). The people who went into the US Capitol Building on 6 January, 2021 were intending to prevent the carrying out of a legal process to certify the results of a democratic election and, in their minds, prevent the succession of the presidency. That makes them insurrectionists, not just protestors anymore, at least as regards the US Constitution and democratic process. Besides, protestors and rioters in 2020 were prosecuted. And it's moronic or ignorant to say they weren't.
    - gwright 6y ago
      > Besides, protestors and rioters in 2020 were prosecuted. And it's moronic or ignorant to say they weren't. That some people were prosecuted doesn't negate the overall acceptance by the left of the violent activity as legitimate political activism because it was in support of particular favored political opinions. The very clear message was that as long as you were spouting the approved political mantras the violent activities were OK. Attempting to discern who is or who isn't an "insurrectionist" is a distraction. Trespassing, breaking and entering, looting, vandalism, destruction of property, arson, assault are all crimes that should be prosecuted and not excused if you are committing them while having the correct political thoughts. BTW, yesterday's opportunists have to be the saddest lot of "insurrectionists" I've ever seen. They seemed more interested in posting selfies than overthrowing anything. They should be mocked mercilessly and prosecuted vigorously.
- zarkov99 6y ago
  Oh for crying out loud. Is it not obvious that in both cases people should go to freaking jail? We do not need to agree on which is the worst crime. Are we so blinded by irrational partisanship that we allow criminals a pass if they are in anyway adjacent to whatever political tribe we belong to? God damn it. This sort of stupidity, of blind, intellectually dishonest allegiance to parties that could not care less for America is what is destroying the country. We are well on our way to at best paralysis and at worst civil war if we cannot step out of our bubbles and condemn bad behavior on its merits. What a pathetic ending for the greatest country of the last 100 years.
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    Did I say they shouldn't be in jail? Seriously, where in my words did I say that? Is it a coded message that I can't read but everyone else can? I was commenting on your use of the term insurrection to describe what were, mostly, protests against police brutality (which were often met with acts of police brutality) and trying to establish that those actions were not the same as literally storming the Congress to prevent/delay the presidential election process (a much clearer act of insurrection, even if it was completely moronic and doomed from the start)>
jakelazaroff 6y ago
You should probably mention the police as well. The terrorists wearing badges seem to also have little to fear from the law.
ATsch 6y ago
Indeed, that is why they protected their identities, covered their faces and were arrested on spurious charges by the ten thousands and key figures mysteriously ended up in burnt up cars half a year later.
majormajor 6y ago
This summer, and in previous years, law enforcement did in fact follow up later using videos and such to try to track people down. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-02/not-so-fast-lapd-other-agencies-collect-unrest-footage-as-evidence-for-future-arrests https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-02/not-so-f... One easy-to-find story discussing both this year and past situations in other cities. And it notes that many looters were wearing masks - because they knew they could face consequences. If we take one step back, though, to what led to those protests this summer... we see police killing a black man for a minor offence. Let's compare THAT police action with the police response to yesterday. THAT'S America.
grahamburger 6y ago
Are you suggesting that there weren't lots of arrests of rioters and looters this summer? I believe that many people were arrested any time the protests turned violent or in cases of significant vandalism. I know there were many highly reported arrests in my part of the country from the parts of the protests that went out of control. Still, they weren't insurrectionists. They weren't trying to put someone in power who lost the election. That's an important distinction. Maybe we shouldn't compare them at all, but if we're going to, what MAGA did was worse.

You should probably mention Portland, Seattle, Kenosha, Chicago, New York as well. The other kind of insurrectionists seem to also have little to fear from the law.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Jtsummers 6y ago

There's a bit of a difference between people gathering and protesting or even rioting in <various big cities around US> and actually storming the US Capitol Building during the tally of Electoral College votes with the intention of, somehow in their twisted minds, preventing that tally and succession to the next democratically elected president.

jhardy54 6y ago
Wow, what a double-standard. Why is it that the left is allowed to express themselves through protest and civil disobedience but the right can't plant bombs and try to kidnap senators when they don't like the outcome of an election? /s
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- disgrunt 6y ago
  > Why is it that the left is allowed to express themselves through protest and civil disobedience... By burning down police precincts and courthouses. Oh, and shooting cops. Those rascals.
  - epistasis 6y ago
    Because of the difficulty of seeing sarcasm on the internet, I think it's worth pointing out that it was a far-right Boogaloo Boy that murdered a cop in California during a standoff, and was in text communication with another Boogaloo boy that is charged with arson in the burning of the Minneapolis police precinct: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo-boi-minneapolis-police-building-george-floyd https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo... They have been trying to start a race war and were performing false flag violence to further their aims.
    - disgrunt 6y ago
      And what about these five police officers killed in Dallas during a BLM protest? [0] [0]: https://fox11online.com/on-fox-11/gallery/pofficers-shot-at-protest-in-dallas-reports https://fox11online.com/on-fox-11/gallery/pofficers-shot-at-...
      - epistasis 6y ago
        The one in 2016? Yes, that was really awful. But when talking about the specific pair of burning down a police precinct and murder of law enforcement I think the reference is to the Boogaloo Bois. Unless your "what about" has a more specific point that you could make more clear for me.
buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
Sounds like you really want them to be different, at the very least.
- epistasis 6y ago
  One of the movements is petitioning the government for change. The counter-movement is plotting to kidnap politicians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_pl...
eej71 6y ago
The MAGA flavored anarchists and nihilists who stormed the US Capitol Building will hopefully be brought up on as many felonies as possible, tried in court, and ideally spend some real time in a real jail. Even better if they can also track down organizers - who perhaps weren't there - and charge them with racketeering or sedition. It was evil and it needs to be halted. I also think the same thing needs to happen to the antifa flavored anarchists we were witness to throughout the summer. The endless attacks on businesses (big and small), federal buildings, lawlessness, looting, storming police precints, portland city council buildings, and general destruction should also result in as many felonies as possible. Both groups "think" that sheer muscle and raw emotionalism in the street is a legitimate way to bully your preferred changes through. It's the same evil mindset and it needs to be called out and punished regardless of what flag they appear to operate under.
- chillwaves 6y ago
  > Even better if they can also track down organizers There is video of the rally prior where Trump, his son, Rudy Giuliani and others were inciting the mob to violence.
  - zaroth 6y ago
    This is exactly what every good fascist says when their opponent speaks at political rallies. If you can’t see both sides of the coin, why play around at flipping it?
    - vkou 6y ago
      Have just hit peak cultural relativism, where identifying the organizers of a fascist coup is the same thing as being a fascist?
      - zaroth 6y ago
        I think we’re making the same point, but “organizers of a fascist coup” is a bit rich. What we saw yesterday will be properly charged as entering a restricted building, violent entry and disorderly conduct on capitol grounds, in limited cases assault on a federal law enforcement officer, and in a single digit number of cases, second degree murder. No charges will be laid for sedition, treason, or insurrection. Despite what you might read on CNN. I would say the same thing for all the rioting that happened last year. Even though city blocks were illegally cordoned off and occupied for weeks. Just my prediction.
gwright 6y ago
So you are saying that the difference is such that one group should not be prosecuted and the other group should? What criteria are you using to differentiate? Storming government buildings other than the Capital is OK? How about we just prosecute everyone who breaks the law?
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  > So you are saying that the difference is such that one group should not be prosecuted and the other group should? What criteria are you using to differentiate? Storming government buildings other than the Capital is OK? I said nothing of the sort and I don't know how you would interpret my words that way. From the poster I responded to: > The other kind of insurrectionists seem to also have little to fear from the law My response was about the notion that protesters and rioters this summer were "insurrectionists", they were not. At least not as a general rule. Some of them, maybe, probably always are in political protests. But most of them were there to either create havoc (rioters) or protest for change to the way policing is conducted in the US (the protestors). The people who went into the US Capitol Building on 6 January, 2021 were intending to prevent the carrying out of a legal process to certify the results of a democratic election and, in their minds, prevent the succession of the presidency. That makes them insurrectionists, not just protestors anymore, at least as regards the US Constitution and democratic process. Besides, protestors and rioters in 2020 were prosecuted. And it's moronic or ignorant to say they weren't.
  - gwright 6y ago
    > Besides, protestors and rioters in 2020 were prosecuted. And it's moronic or ignorant to say they weren't. That some people were prosecuted doesn't negate the overall acceptance by the left of the violent activity as legitimate political activism because it was in support of particular favored political opinions. The very clear message was that as long as you were spouting the approved political mantras the violent activities were OK. Attempting to discern who is or who isn't an "insurrectionist" is a distraction. Trespassing, breaking and entering, looting, vandalism, destruction of property, arson, assault are all crimes that should be prosecuted and not excused if you are committing them while having the correct political thoughts. BTW, yesterday's opportunists have to be the saddest lot of "insurrectionists" I've ever seen. They seemed more interested in posting selfies than overthrowing anything. They should be mocked mercilessly and prosecuted vigorously.
zarkov99 6y ago
Oh for crying out loud. Is it not obvious that in both cases people should go to freaking jail? We do not need to agree on which is the worst crime. Are we so blinded by irrational partisanship that we allow criminals a pass if they are in anyway adjacent to whatever political tribe we belong to? God damn it. This sort of stupidity, of blind, intellectually dishonest allegiance to parties that could not care less for America is what is destroying the country. We are well on our way to at best paralysis and at worst civil war if we cannot step out of our bubbles and condemn bad behavior on its merits. What a pathetic ending for the greatest country of the last 100 years.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  Did I say they shouldn't be in jail? Seriously, where in my words did I say that? Is it a coded message that I can't read but everyone else can? I was commenting on your use of the term insurrection to describe what were, mostly, protests against police brutality (which were often met with acts of police brutality) and trying to establish that those actions were not the same as literally storming the Congress to prevent/delay the presidential election process (a much clearer act of insurrection, even if it was completely moronic and doomed from the start)>

jakelazaroff 6y ago

You should probably mention the police as well. The terrorists wearing badges seem to also have little to fear from the law.

ATsch 6y ago

Indeed, that is why they protected their identities, covered their faces and were arrested on spurious charges by the ten thousands and key figures mysteriously ended up in burnt up cars half a year later.

majormajor 6y ago

This summer, and in previous years, law enforcement did in fact follow up later using videos and such to try to track people down. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-02/not-so-fast-lapd-other-agencies-collect-unrest-footage-as-evidence-for-future-arrests https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-02/not-so-f... One easy-to-find story discussing both this year and past situations in other cities. And it notes that many looters were wearing masks - because they knew they could face consequences. If we take one step back, though, to what led to those protests this summer... we see police killing a black man for a minor offence. Let's compare THAT police action with the police response to yesterday. THAT'S America.

grahamburger 6y ago

Are you suggesting that there weren't lots of arrests of rioters and looters this summer? I believe that many people were arrested any time the protests turned violent or in cases of significant vandalism. I know there were many highly reported arrests in my part of the country from the parts of the protests that went out of control. Still, they weren't insurrectionists. They weren't trying to put someone in power who lost the election. That's an important distinction. Maybe we shouldn't compare them at all, but if we're going to, what MAGA did was worse.