6 ms·

truly talented writer, not really the kind of guy who should be held up as a moral teacher. had a long-term pattern of sleeping with his students. committed ser

truly talented writer, not really the kind of guy who should be held up as a moral teacher. had a long-term pattern of sleeping with his students. committed serious domestic violence against one of his partners. this wasn't well-known at the time this speech was given, or after he killed himself and the speech became hugely popular. It seems like it still isn't. I think there's some kind of minimum bar where you shouldn't take spiritual and moral advice from somebody.

oh_sigh 6y ago
I think if you erased the name of the author, and prefaced the post with "Here's some life advice from a man who committed suicide 3 years after giving it" - few people would give this a second glance. I'm more inclined to do the exact opposite of what he says, because clearly it didn't work for him. DFW - a great author, and a profoundly sad human. Enjoy his works but don't look to him for anything more than entertainment.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  I'm willing to bet there's a not insignificant fraction of society who are profoundly interested in the lives and writing of people who have done harm to themselves and / or others.
cf-d-ycom 6y ago
What if the advice that would really help someone just happens to be from people who are all below this person's purity test bar?
- xupybd 6y ago
  I don't know if it's a purity test. We've all failed. We've all had bad behaviour patterns. None of those things are disqualifications. In some cases it's overcoming these things that make someone worth listening to. But if the person failed to do so perhaps something about their world view needed to change? Perhaps listening to them could lead you down the same path?
cf-d-ycom 6y ago
Also, would there not be value in the words from someone who had experience with moral corruption? If I wanted to hear what the world was like outside the city walls, I'd expect that person to have gone outside the city walls before.
- currymj 6y ago
  i see what you’re saying in the broader case — i can imagine it would be worth listening to someone who had reckoned with the evil they did — but that’s not how people sold DFW. The pitch was “here’s a book of good advice from a man who was brilliant, morally decent, and struggled with depression”.
imgabe 6y ago
People can have flaws and do things wrong and still be right about some things. Indeed, everyone has flaws and does things wrong, so if you're looking for someone who doesn't before you consider any advice, you're unlikely to ever be able to learn anything. If someone failed out of school and tells you to study hard, are you going to discount their advice because they failed to live up to it?
Sophistifunk 6y ago
If the ghost of Hitler tells you not to hit your sister and take her toys, it's still good advice.
coldtea 6y ago
>truly talented writer, not really the kind of guy who should be held up as a moral teacher. had a long-term pattern of sleeping with his students So? Unless the students where kids (as opposed to 18 and above), that's a moralist, religious-derived, US-centric concern (not that such moralism hasn't made its way and infected other parts of the world)... People that call out adults for sleeping with whoever adult they like are worse than people that sleep with their adult students...
- logicchains 6y ago
  > that's a moralist, religious-derived, US-centric concern It's a conflict of interest, like an employee sleeping with their boss. It's hard to trust somebody to fairly assess somebody they're sleeping with.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >It's a conflict of interest, like an employee sleeping with their boss It's only bad if it's part of blackmail or exchange (e.g. for grades, etc). Else, if it's a consentual relation, it's fine just like any other. Lots of employees have had great relationships and marriages and kids with their bosses and vice versa. And even more students and professors had affairs (this will include someone like French President Macron). Humans are humans they don't easily compartmentalize their attraction or sexuality just because some bureaucratic rules say so.
    - throwaway201103 6y ago
      I don't think the fact that it sometimes works out well means that it's generally a good idea. Relationships probably end in breakup as often as not, and then you're left in the awkward position of still needing to go to class (or to work) with your ex as your "superior."
      - coldtea 6y ago
        >I don't think the fact that it sometimes works out well means that it's generally a good idea. That it's not generally a good idea is inherent in the "sometime it doesn't work out well" (the complamentary to "it sometimes works out well"). But that's also true for most affairs/relationships, and according to statistics, marriages (if we consider a divorce as "the marriage not working out well"). And it can be awkward, like those. But my point was, it's human, and not some moral issue to condemn a person or a writer's writing for.
dumpsterdiver 6y ago
Some of the greatest geniuses in history were incredibly troubled people. The fact that they were terrible messes does not change the fact that we are still standing upon their shoulders.

oh_sigh 6y ago

I think if you erased the name of the author, and prefaced the post with "Here's some life advice from a man who committed suicide 3 years after giving it" - few people would give this a second glance. I'm more inclined to do the exact opposite of what he says, because clearly it didn't work for him. DFW - a great author, and a profoundly sad human. Enjoy his works but don't look to him for anything more than entertainment.

TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
I'm willing to bet there's a not insignificant fraction of society who are profoundly interested in the lives and writing of people who have done harm to themselves and / or others.

cf-d-ycom 6y ago

What if the advice that would really help someone just happens to be from people who are all below this person's purity test bar?

xupybd 6y ago
I don't know if it's a purity test. We've all failed. We've all had bad behaviour patterns. None of those things are disqualifications. In some cases it's overcoming these things that make someone worth listening to. But if the person failed to do so perhaps something about their world view needed to change? Perhaps listening to them could lead you down the same path?

cf-d-ycom 6y ago

Also, would there not be value in the words from someone who had experience with moral corruption? If I wanted to hear what the world was like outside the city walls, I'd expect that person to have gone outside the city walls before.

currymj 6y ago
i see what you’re saying in the broader case — i can imagine it would be worth listening to someone who had reckoned with the evil they did — but that’s not how people sold DFW. The pitch was “here’s a book of good advice from a man who was brilliant, morally decent, and struggled with depression”.

imgabe 6y ago

People can have flaws and do things wrong and still be right about some things. Indeed, everyone has flaws and does things wrong, so if you're looking for someone who doesn't before you consider any advice, you're unlikely to ever be able to learn anything. If someone failed out of school and tells you to study hard, are you going to discount their advice because they failed to live up to it?

Sophistifunk 6y ago

If the ghost of Hitler tells you not to hit your sister and take her toys, it's still good advice.

coldtea 6y ago

>truly talented writer, not really the kind of guy who should be held up as a moral teacher. had a long-term pattern of sleeping with his students So? Unless the students where kids (as opposed to 18 and above), that's a moralist, religious-derived, US-centric concern (not that such moralism hasn't made its way and infected other parts of the world)... People that call out adults for sleeping with whoever adult they like are worse than people that sleep with their adult students...

logicchains 6y ago
> that's a moralist, religious-derived, US-centric concern It's a conflict of interest, like an employee sleeping with their boss. It's hard to trust somebody to fairly assess somebody they're sleeping with.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >It's a conflict of interest, like an employee sleeping with their boss It's only bad if it's part of blackmail or exchange (e.g. for grades, etc). Else, if it's a consentual relation, it's fine just like any other. Lots of employees have had great relationships and marriages and kids with their bosses and vice versa. And even more students and professors had affairs (this will include someone like French President Macron). Humans are humans they don't easily compartmentalize their attraction or sexuality just because some bureaucratic rules say so.
  - throwaway201103 6y ago
    I don't think the fact that it sometimes works out well means that it's generally a good idea. Relationships probably end in breakup as often as not, and then you're left in the awkward position of still needing to go to class (or to work) with your ex as your "superior."
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >I don't think the fact that it sometimes works out well means that it's generally a good idea. That it's not generally a good idea is inherent in the "sometime it doesn't work out well" (the complamentary to "it sometimes works out well"). But that's also true for most affairs/relationships, and according to statistics, marriages (if we consider a divorce as "the marriage not working out well"). And it can be awkward, like those. But my point was, it's human, and not some moral issue to condemn a person or a writer's writing for.

dumpsterdiver 6y ago

Some of the greatest geniuses in history were incredibly troubled people. The fact that they were terrible messes does not change the fact that we are still standing upon their shoulders.