4 ms·

Corporations in the USA have the same legal rights as individuals in matters such as free speech, political lobbying, and so on. But when it comes to criminal l

Corporations in the USA have the same legal rights as individuals in matters such as free speech, political lobbying, and so on. But when it comes to criminal liability, the people in charge are not held accountable and can buy their way out of jail with corporate funds. What a great country.

bergstromm466 6y ago
By using the US intellectual property system, corporations can also patent and own DNA.
seibelj 6y ago
Hypothetically, let's say you had perfect access to all internal communications, emails, etc. And after all of this, you never found a smoking gun - not anyone to blame directly for this. The Max issue was caused by a culture of stupidity, greed, cronyism, etc. etc. What then? Should we shut Boeing down? Should we arrest the executive team out of principle? I think a lot of enormous fuckups like this are not directed by individuals, but more likely a miasma of incompetence that cannot be directly associated with any one person. It's more like we should arrest Harvard Business School professors for teaching MBA strategy wrong.
- snovv_crash 6y ago
  Isn't this why we pay the executive team the big bucks?
  - seibelj 6y ago
    It’s one thing to fire the exec team. It’s another to charge them with criminal responsibility, especially when the shareholders will ultimately fund their defense one way or another. I don’t think it would be proven. My comment was a broader point about why corporations never seem to have employees get charged. It’s because they usually aren’t liable and won’t get convicted by a jury, and the government subpoenas all the records and determined it won’t fly. If you disagree with my assessment, you must think there is a conspiracy in which government lawyers collude with corporate leaders to protect them. That’s a very strong conspiracy. I’m not saying you are wrong, but recognize what you are asserting.
    - Beldin 6y ago
      > It’s one thing to fire the exec team. It’s another to charge them with criminal responsibility What is their role, their contribution to the company, if not "taking responsibility"? And if that is not part of their task, how much cheaper can this role be fulfilled with sufficient impact by someone else?
    - snovv_crash 6y ago
      Professional engineers can be held criminally responsible if a building they sign off on fails. Chartered accountants can be held criminally liable if they sign off on fudged books. I don't see why an executive can't be held responsible for creating a culture under which illegal activity is the only viable option for their employees.
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  > Should we arrest the executive team out of principle? How about prohibiting them from holding executive positions in the future?
  - hndudette2 6y ago
    The upside of your proposal is that it'll create a very strong disincentive for this kind of behavior. But if we really can't attribute blame to specific individuals, your proposal is effectively collective punishment where individuals that are genuinely innocent are punished because of wrongdoings of other members of the group. From a justice perspective, we're in murky moral waters. An analogy would be to punish everyone in a shared household if we know that one member of that household committed a crime but we can't determine which one specifically (and let's assume that the innocent members of the household don't know and aren't hiding information). This would be a state of affairs that everyone would rightly protest. So we need to think carefully as to whether we want to enact your proposal.
    - mehrdadn 6y ago
      Your comparison is incredibly exaggerated. Being a highly-paid C-level exec of a $120B corporation that holds people's lives in its hand isn't exactly a human right like living in a household. It's as much a privilege as anything can be. And it can and absolutely should be revocable when you show your leadership allows people to people die under your authority, your awareness notwithstanding. When hundreds of people die under your watch, it isn't about you anymore. It's about the rest of society. You can tweak it if you feel it prohibits things like being a CEO of a self-proprietorship or a small family business or whatever; I don't care if you want to do that. Just draw a line that ensures they would get nowhere near a position like this in the future. The ultimate point being: you can still let them make decisions about their own lives if you want, but that doesn't imply you have to let them make decisions that affect other people's lives.
      - mcny 6y ago
        I absolutely agree that leadership at Boeing was responsible for the deaths but the fact that we can’t get it right for (comparatively) petty crimes means we are unable to get out right for the big ones. I’m of course referring to the sheriff in California who has not been charged for corruption and has not been forced to resign: Previously on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25193699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25193699 They didn't even touch the Sheriff. > Sheriff Laurie Smith, who has the authority to issue CCW permits, has not been charged with a crime. Either i. the sheriff knew about/was in on this scheme and must be put in prison or ii. the sheriff didn't know about how her number two was soliciting bribes using her authority to grant/deny licenses and must resign because that is just gross negligence. Which one is it?
bdowling 6y ago
> Corporations in the USA have the same legal rights as individuals... They don't. For example, 5th Amendment protections against self-incrimination do not apply to corporations. Also, corporations have a right to an attorney but one is not provided to them free of charge by the government. > But when it comes to criminal liability, the people in charge are not held accountable... Bernie Madoff, Jeffrey Skilling, Martha Stewart, and others put in jail for corporate crimes would disagree with you.
- saiya-jin 6y ago
  Name one CEO of massive company with good relationship with US government that ever went to jail for things like 2008 financial crisis, or similar moral failures and criminal acts. As much as those names you named are important, they are peasants compared to power wielded by the big guys.
  - daniel-cussen 6y ago
    Bernie Madoff was no peasant. He started the NASDAQ, and apart from not meeting your requirement of being a massive company CEO, ticked off all the boxes. He got 150 years in prison.
    - opwieurposiu 6y ago
      Bernie's mistake was stealing from other rich people. Much safer to steal from the taxpayer.
jacquesm 6y ago
Can buy their way out with government funds. The Government is the largest spender on Boeing products.

bergstromm466 6y ago

By using the US intellectual property system, corporations can also patent and own DNA.

seibelj 6y ago

Hypothetically, let's say you had perfect access to all internal communications, emails, etc. And after all of this, you never found a smoking gun - not anyone to blame directly for this. The Max issue was caused by a culture of stupidity, greed, cronyism, etc. etc. What then? Should we shut Boeing down? Should we arrest the executive team out of principle? I think a lot of enormous fuckups like this are not directed by individuals, but more likely a miasma of incompetence that cannot be directly associated with any one person. It's more like we should arrest Harvard Business School professors for teaching MBA strategy wrong.

snovv_crash 6y ago
Isn't this why we pay the executive team the big bucks?
- seibelj 6y ago
  It’s one thing to fire the exec team. It’s another to charge them with criminal responsibility, especially when the shareholders will ultimately fund their defense one way or another. I don’t think it would be proven. My comment was a broader point about why corporations never seem to have employees get charged. It’s because they usually aren’t liable and won’t get convicted by a jury, and the government subpoenas all the records and determined it won’t fly. If you disagree with my assessment, you must think there is a conspiracy in which government lawyers collude with corporate leaders to protect them. That’s a very strong conspiracy. I’m not saying you are wrong, but recognize what you are asserting.
  - Beldin 6y ago
    > It’s one thing to fire the exec team. It’s another to charge them with criminal responsibility What is their role, their contribution to the company, if not "taking responsibility"? And if that is not part of their task, how much cheaper can this role be fulfilled with sufficient impact by someone else?
  - snovv_crash 6y ago
    Professional engineers can be held criminally responsible if a building they sign off on fails. Chartered accountants can be held criminally liable if they sign off on fudged books. I don't see why an executive can't be held responsible for creating a culture under which illegal activity is the only viable option for their employees.
mehrdadn 6y ago
> Should we arrest the executive team out of principle? How about prohibiting them from holding executive positions in the future?
- hndudette2 6y ago
  The upside of your proposal is that it'll create a very strong disincentive for this kind of behavior. But if we really can't attribute blame to specific individuals, your proposal is effectively collective punishment where individuals that are genuinely innocent are punished because of wrongdoings of other members of the group. From a justice perspective, we're in murky moral waters. An analogy would be to punish everyone in a shared household if we know that one member of that household committed a crime but we can't determine which one specifically (and let's assume that the innocent members of the household don't know and aren't hiding information). This would be a state of affairs that everyone would rightly protest. So we need to think carefully as to whether we want to enact your proposal.
  - mehrdadn 6y ago
    Your comparison is incredibly exaggerated. Being a highly-paid C-level exec of a $120B corporation that holds people's lives in its hand isn't exactly a human right like living in a household. It's as much a privilege as anything can be. And it can and absolutely should be revocable when you show your leadership allows people to people die under your authority, your awareness notwithstanding. When hundreds of people die under your watch, it isn't about you anymore. It's about the rest of society. You can tweak it if you feel it prohibits things like being a CEO of a self-proprietorship or a small family business or whatever; I don't care if you want to do that. Just draw a line that ensures they would get nowhere near a position like this in the future. The ultimate point being: you can still let them make decisions about their own lives if you want, but that doesn't imply you have to let them make decisions that affect other people's lives.
    - mcny 6y ago
      I absolutely agree that leadership at Boeing was responsible for the deaths but the fact that we can’t get it right for (comparatively) petty crimes means we are unable to get out right for the big ones. I’m of course referring to the sheriff in California who has not been charged for corruption and has not been forced to resign: Previously on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25193699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25193699 They didn't even touch the Sheriff. > Sheriff Laurie Smith, who has the authority to issue CCW permits, has not been charged with a crime. Either i. the sheriff knew about/was in on this scheme and must be put in prison or ii. the sheriff didn't know about how her number two was soliciting bribes using her authority to grant/deny licenses and must resign because that is just gross negligence. Which one is it?

bdowling 6y ago

> Corporations in the USA have the same legal rights as individuals... They don't. For example, 5th Amendment protections against self-incrimination do not apply to corporations. Also, corporations have a right to an attorney but one is not provided to them free of charge by the government. > But when it comes to criminal liability, the people in charge are not held accountable... Bernie Madoff, Jeffrey Skilling, Martha Stewart, and others put in jail for corporate crimes would disagree with you.

saiya-jin 6y ago
Name one CEO of massive company with good relationship with US government that ever went to jail for things like 2008 financial crisis, or similar moral failures and criminal acts. As much as those names you named are important, they are peasants compared to power wielded by the big guys.
- daniel-cussen 6y ago
  Bernie Madoff was no peasant. He started the NASDAQ, and apart from not meeting your requirement of being a massive company CEO, ticked off all the boxes. He got 150 years in prison.
  - opwieurposiu 6y ago
    Bernie's mistake was stealing from other rich people. Much safer to steal from the taxpayer.

jacquesm 6y ago

Can buy their way out with government funds. The Government is the largest spender on Boeing products.