6 ms·

I'm always surprised at the theories people are willing to believe about obesity, particularly people on hn. It really sounds reasonable to so many of you that

I'm always surprised at the theories people are willing to believe about obesity, particularly people on hn. It really sounds reasonable to so many of you that the cause of the obesity epidemic is people actually listening to nutrition advice from the medical establishment and following the food pyramid? My view of what has happened is this: technologies and ingredients were invented by food manufacturers over the past half century. Foods manufactured using these technologies have the following advantages: cheap, high mouth appeal, non-perishable, convenient. They also have the following disadvantages: calorie dense, difficult to metabolize, addictive for some people. For most peopele not explicitly making food decisions with a mind to control their weight, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. At the same time as this was happening, most of the reasons for people to expend calories vanished. As far as I can think of, the only reasons left to burn calories are pleasure and weight control. In this sort of context most normal, perfectly rational people will end up getting fat. The only people who won't are: athletes, people with strong metabolism (this usually goes away with age), and people who dedicate themselves to not being fat.

david_p 15y ago
While I have to agree with you, your theory fails to explain why people in Europe (who have the same access to calorie dense and convenient food) are less obese (in proportion) than North Americans. I believe that culinary customs AND some additives used in industrial food play an important role. Just check out High Fructose Corn Syrup : this is in very product in the USA and is (almost) never used in Europe.
- ljf 15y ago
  Agreed - though in Europe (though maybe not the UK these day) food isn't marketed as agressively, people eat main when they are hungry not for something to do, and home cooking is a way of life and is held in high esteem.
  - icefox 15y ago
    Also more of Europe is plain old walkable or bikeable. When I lived in Oslo I didn't even own a car. In the states there are very few spots you can get by without a car. Even if I wanted to bike from my house to some places there flat out are not sidewalks in a lot of places. Walking is looked down at. There are plenty of blog entries of guys that go without a car even though they could afford it and find dating near impossible not because they live in a city, but because it is such a powerful signal here.
- adw 15y ago
  Your portions are bigger. (Seriously.)
  - potatolicious 15y ago
    This is the absolute core of the problem. I'm a Canadian currently living in the US; our two countries are culturally very similar, and diet-wise practically identical (save poutine, sweet sweet poutine). But the obesity epidemic hasn't swept Canada nearly the same way it is commonly seen in the US. I just got back from a trip to Canada, and I can say with absolute confidence that the typical restaurant dish in the US is more than twice the size it is up north. It's this way in Asia too, and probably Europe (though I haven't been, shame). It doesn't matter how much you exercise (or don't), nor does it matter if you're eating steaks vs. granola bars. If you're eating twice as much as the rest of the world, you've got big problems. The US needs to halve their serving sizes in restaurants, and reduce the appetite of the general population. You can improve what you're eating, and you can exercise more, but none of that will do diddly squat until you cut down on intake.
    - GregBuchholz 15y ago
      See: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-620-m/2005001/c-g/adults-adutles/4053577-eng.htm http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-620-m/2005001/c-g/adults-adu... From: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-620-m/2005001/article/adults-adultes/8060-eng.htm http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-620-m/2005001/article/adults... "The racial make-up of the two countries might explain some of the differences, as research has shown that obesity rates vary by ethnic origin. Nonetheless, when obesity rates of White Americans and Canadians are compared, White women in the United States were significantly more likely than those in Canada to be obese: 30.3% versus 24.8%. However, the percentages of White American and Canadian men who were obese did not differ."
  - watmough 15y ago
    For myself and my wife, typical US serving sizes constitute 3 meals, though nowadays, we generally only eat out occasionally, and at local non-chain restaurants that serve decent quality food.
- dhughes 15y ago
  I'd say "people in Europe" is way too general, I'm sure there are regions such as the UK where obesity is as bad as the US. I've dealt with vendors from southern France and Western Italy and when they come here they are shocked at portion sizes and how much pop people drink, it's all anyone drinks. Even I see the difference from many years go portions are huge even people are huge, it's hard to find clothing that isn't over-sized and baggy. Claiming corn syrup is bad meanwhile people drink it morning, noon and night seems to indicate it's equally the fault of a culture that is comfortable with eating so much crap but seeing it as normal then blaming it for their problems. At work we have a pop machine which up until a few years ago due a provincial law could only dispense glass bottles, all carbonated beverages had to be in a glass container. The glass bottles were about 315ml, then the law changed (because people wanted cans) and the next day the pop machines was stocked with the modern plastic bottle but they were nearly 600ml. The fridge at work was full of half bottles of pop because people couldn't drink their 600ml beverages in one sitting but gradually over the next month or two people adjusted and now drink the entire 600ml in one sitting almost double. HFCS or not who is to blame for that? The person drinking it.
  - jodrellblank 15y ago
    The fridge at work was full of half bottles of pop because people couldn't drink their 600ml beverages in one sitting but gradually over the next month or two people adjusted and now drink the entire 600ml in one sitting almost double. HFCS or not who is to blame for that? The person drinking it. The person drinking it is "to blame" for what, precisely? Being a creature which can adjust to its environment? Why does any blame need assigning? Who benefits from assigning any blame?
- CoffeeDregs 15y ago
  Picking a nit, but: I generally agreed with you up until you referenced HFCS. HFCS is a bogeyman and is nearly identical to sucrose (to be precise, HFCS-55 was formulated to replace sucrose by providing a nearly identical mix of fructose and glucose (yes, it's 55/45 rather than 50/50; blow); see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fructose_corn_syrup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fructose_corn_syrup). The problem with HFCS is not HFCS, it's that the US government has subsidized corn production, lowering the price of corn, lowering the price on a sucrose-analog and increasing the total amount of sucrose-analog in the American diet. See Earl Butz [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Butz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Butz ]. Fascinating charts. Compare: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Usda_sweeteners.svg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Usda_swee... and http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/USObesityRate1960-2004.gif http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/USObesity...
- ajscherer 15y ago
  Great question, I've often wondered about the same thing. I think it's probably a combination of factors, the most important being, in my view, culture. I suspect that other countries may have more homogeneous eating traditions than the U.S. If most people around you are eating the same sorts of foods, and eating occupies the same space in their lives, its probably less likely to occur to you to go buy a bag of fritos or a pizza or something. If everyone around you is behaving in varied ways with respect to food, you may be more likely to make decisions based on price, convenience, or the "food buzz" you get from eating something. It may also be that buying everything based on price and convenience is itself a cultural norm in the U.S. It might be economic factors as well. If the U.S. is the world leader in corn production and industrial-scale agriculture, the market for food products in the U.S. might just be very different from what exists in Europe. Finally there is the possibility that the U.S is not alone in the obesity epidemic, merely ahead. I'm not totally sold on that, but it's a possibility.
- jdietrich 15y ago
  Ask for a coke in almost any bar or cafe in Europe and you'll be served a 200ml bottle. Buy a portion of french fries from a snack bar and you'll usually get a palm-sized portion on a paper tray. French schools serve real food on real plates - a portion of moules marinière or escargot would be completely familiar fare to most french kids. Even lardy Britain is changing school meals from mere fuel to an integral part of a child's education. American food culture is one of abundance - eating large quantities of the richest foods. The humblest of American meals are based around meat in great quantity. Italians still eat a prima piatti of something cheap and filling before a relatively small secondi piatti of meat or fish, a cultural legacy from harder times when meat of any sort was a treat. The tide is certainly turning and obesity rates are soaring, but the difference in rates is largely accounted for by cultural difference. The French rightly see it as a crisis that students don't want to sit down for meals anymore. Most of Europe sees food as a vitally important political and social issue.
- GregBuchholz 15y ago
  http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/mar/16/europeanunion.medicineandhealth http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/mar/16/europeanunion.... "The International Obesity Task Force estimated that Finland, Germany, Greece, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Malta have exceeded the United States figure of 67% for overweight or obese males."
jdminhbg 15y ago
"It really sounds reasonable to so many of you that the cause of the obesity epidemic is people actually listening to nutrition advice from the medical establishment and following the food pyramid?" Who said this? The anti-nutritional establishment claim being made here is that the incorrect demonization of fat led people to replace dietary fat with carbohydrates (see, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SnackWells http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SnackWells). You can complain all you want about food manufacturers making tasty/addictive foods which are bad for you, but they were responding to the public's demand for "low fat" driven by bad science. On a slightly more meta note, it's probably bad form to be fake "surprised" that people have differing opinions for yours, especially when the theory being discussed is a summary of actual research and history and your counter is a "my view"-style list of anecdotes.
- ajscherer 15y ago
  The surprise is genuine, and I didn't include any anecdotes in my post. The research I have seen indicates that high carbohydrate intake (particularly sugars) is more likely to make someone obese than high fat intake. The research I have seen in no way indicates that the reason people select high sugar foods is because those foods are believed to be healthy by virtue of their low fat content. No doubt companies use "low fat" as a marketing tool. The same can be said of "low carb", "low sodium", "sugar free", "all natural" and any number of other phrases that sound healthy. I don't think this is a significant factor in the obesity epidemic. People aren't choosing Snackwells in preference to a handful of walnuts (to they extent that they are choosing Snackwells; I've never seen anyone purchase them). People are choosing Snackwells in preference to Chips Ahoy. I think this idea that the dietary advice of 20-30 years ago (low fat) is the primary cause of the obesity epidemic is the result of a desire for a dramatically satisfying narrative (Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.). Ponder this: the Atkins / Low-carb craze started over 10 years ago. All the advice I see in online fitness forums acknowledges the value of high-protien low-carb eating. "Low-carb" is becoming a ubiquitous phrase on food packaging. Yet the obesity epidemic continues unchecked. To me this indicates that the people who choose foods based on macronutrients are choosing low-carb, but that most people are not involving macronutrients in their food decisions.

david_p 15y ago

While I have to agree with you, your theory fails to explain why people in Europe (who have the same access to calorie dense and convenient food) are less obese (in proportion) than North Americans. I believe that culinary customs AND some additives used in industrial food play an important role. Just check out High Fructose Corn Syrup : this is in very product in the USA and is (almost) never used in Europe.

ljf 15y ago
Agreed - though in Europe (though maybe not the UK these day) food isn't marketed as agressively, people eat main when they are hungry not for something to do, and home cooking is a way of life and is held in high esteem.
- icefox 15y ago
  Also more of Europe is plain old walkable or bikeable. When I lived in Oslo I didn't even own a car. In the states there are very few spots you can get by without a car. Even if I wanted to bike from my house to some places there flat out are not sidewalks in a lot of places. Walking is looked down at. There are plenty of blog entries of guys that go without a car even though they could afford it and find dating near impossible not because they live in a city, but because it is such a powerful signal here.
adw 15y ago
Your portions are bigger. (Seriously.)
- potatolicious 15y ago
  This is the absolute core of the problem. I'm a Canadian currently living in the US; our two countries are culturally very similar, and diet-wise practically identical (save poutine, sweet sweet poutine). But the obesity epidemic hasn't swept Canada nearly the same way it is commonly seen in the US. I just got back from a trip to Canada, and I can say with absolute confidence that the typical restaurant dish in the US is more than twice the size it is up north. It's this way in Asia too, and probably Europe (though I haven't been, shame). It doesn't matter how much you exercise (or don't), nor does it matter if you're eating steaks vs. granola bars. If you're eating twice as much as the rest of the world, you've got big problems. The US needs to halve their serving sizes in restaurants, and reduce the appetite of the general population. You can improve what you're eating, and you can exercise more, but none of that will do diddly squat until you cut down on intake.
  - GregBuchholz 15y ago
    See: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-620-m/2005001/c-g/adults-adutles/4053577-eng.htm http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-620-m/2005001/c-g/adults-adu... From: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-620-m/2005001/article/adults-adultes/8060-eng.htm http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-620-m/2005001/article/adults... "The racial make-up of the two countries might explain some of the differences, as research has shown that obesity rates vary by ethnic origin. Nonetheless, when obesity rates of White Americans and Canadians are compared, White women in the United States were significantly more likely than those in Canada to be obese: 30.3% versus 24.8%. However, the percentages of White American and Canadian men who were obese did not differ."
- watmough 15y ago
  For myself and my wife, typical US serving sizes constitute 3 meals, though nowadays, we generally only eat out occasionally, and at local non-chain restaurants that serve decent quality food.
dhughes 15y ago
I'd say "people in Europe" is way too general, I'm sure there are regions such as the UK where obesity is as bad as the US. I've dealt with vendors from southern France and Western Italy and when they come here they are shocked at portion sizes and how much pop people drink, it's all anyone drinks. Even I see the difference from many years go portions are huge even people are huge, it's hard to find clothing that isn't over-sized and baggy. Claiming corn syrup is bad meanwhile people drink it morning, noon and night seems to indicate it's equally the fault of a culture that is comfortable with eating so much crap but seeing it as normal then blaming it for their problems. At work we have a pop machine which up until a few years ago due a provincial law could only dispense glass bottles, all carbonated beverages had to be in a glass container. The glass bottles were about 315ml, then the law changed (because people wanted cans) and the next day the pop machines was stocked with the modern plastic bottle but they were nearly 600ml. The fridge at work was full of half bottles of pop because people couldn't drink their 600ml beverages in one sitting but gradually over the next month or two people adjusted and now drink the entire 600ml in one sitting almost double. HFCS or not who is to blame for that? The person drinking it.
- jodrellblank 15y ago
  The fridge at work was full of half bottles of pop because people couldn't drink their 600ml beverages in one sitting but gradually over the next month or two people adjusted and now drink the entire 600ml in one sitting almost double. HFCS or not who is to blame for that? The person drinking it. The person drinking it is "to blame" for what, precisely? Being a creature which can adjust to its environment? Why does any blame need assigning? Who benefits from assigning any blame?
CoffeeDregs 15y ago
Picking a nit, but: I generally agreed with you up until you referenced HFCS. HFCS is a bogeyman and is nearly identical to sucrose (to be precise, HFCS-55 was formulated to replace sucrose by providing a nearly identical mix of fructose and glucose (yes, it's 55/45 rather than 50/50; blow); see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fructose_corn_syrup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fructose_corn_syrup). The problem with HFCS is not HFCS, it's that the US government has subsidized corn production, lowering the price of corn, lowering the price on a sucrose-analog and increasing the total amount of sucrose-analog in the American diet. See Earl Butz [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Butz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Butz ]. Fascinating charts. Compare: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Usda_sweeteners.svg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Usda_swee... and http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/USObesityRate1960-2004.gif http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/USObesity...
ajscherer 15y ago
Great question, I've often wondered about the same thing. I think it's probably a combination of factors, the most important being, in my view, culture. I suspect that other countries may have more homogeneous eating traditions than the U.S. If most people around you are eating the same sorts of foods, and eating occupies the same space in their lives, its probably less likely to occur to you to go buy a bag of fritos or a pizza or something. If everyone around you is behaving in varied ways with respect to food, you may be more likely to make decisions based on price, convenience, or the "food buzz" you get from eating something. It may also be that buying everything based on price and convenience is itself a cultural norm in the U.S. It might be economic factors as well. If the U.S. is the world leader in corn production and industrial-scale agriculture, the market for food products in the U.S. might just be very different from what exists in Europe. Finally there is the possibility that the U.S is not alone in the obesity epidemic, merely ahead. I'm not totally sold on that, but it's a possibility.
jdietrich 15y ago
Ask for a coke in almost any bar or cafe in Europe and you'll be served a 200ml bottle. Buy a portion of french fries from a snack bar and you'll usually get a palm-sized portion on a paper tray. French schools serve real food on real plates - a portion of moules marinière or escargot would be completely familiar fare to most french kids. Even lardy Britain is changing school meals from mere fuel to an integral part of a child's education. American food culture is one of abundance - eating large quantities of the richest foods. The humblest of American meals are based around meat in great quantity. Italians still eat a prima piatti of something cheap and filling before a relatively small secondi piatti of meat or fish, a cultural legacy from harder times when meat of any sort was a treat. The tide is certainly turning and obesity rates are soaring, but the difference in rates is largely accounted for by cultural difference. The French rightly see it as a crisis that students don't want to sit down for meals anymore. Most of Europe sees food as a vitally important political and social issue.
GregBuchholz 15y ago
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/mar/16/europeanunion.medicineandhealth http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/mar/16/europeanunion.... "The International Obesity Task Force estimated that Finland, Germany, Greece, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Malta have exceeded the United States figure of 67% for overweight or obese males."

jdminhbg 15y ago

"It really sounds reasonable to so many of you that the cause of the obesity epidemic is people actually listening to nutrition advice from the medical establishment and following the food pyramid?" Who said this? The anti-nutritional establishment claim being made here is that the incorrect demonization of fat led people to replace dietary fat with carbohydrates (see, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SnackWells http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SnackWells). You can complain all you want about food manufacturers making tasty/addictive foods which are bad for you, but they were responding to the public's demand for "low fat" driven by bad science. On a slightly more meta note, it's probably bad form to be fake "surprised" that people have differing opinions for yours, especially when the theory being discussed is a summary of actual research and history and your counter is a "my view"-style list of anecdotes.

ajscherer 15y ago
The surprise is genuine, and I didn't include any anecdotes in my post. The research I have seen indicates that high carbohydrate intake (particularly sugars) is more likely to make someone obese than high fat intake. The research I have seen in no way indicates that the reason people select high sugar foods is because those foods are believed to be healthy by virtue of their low fat content. No doubt companies use "low fat" as a marketing tool. The same can be said of "low carb", "low sodium", "sugar free", "all natural" and any number of other phrases that sound healthy. I don't think this is a significant factor in the obesity epidemic. People aren't choosing Snackwells in preference to a handful of walnuts (to they extent that they are choosing Snackwells; I've never seen anyone purchase them). People are choosing Snackwells in preference to Chips Ahoy. I think this idea that the dietary advice of 20-30 years ago (low fat) is the primary cause of the obesity epidemic is the result of a desire for a dramatically satisfying narrative (Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.). Ponder this: the Atkins / Low-carb craze started over 10 years ago. All the advice I see in online fitness forums acknowledges the value of high-protien low-carb eating. "Low-carb" is becoming a ubiquitous phrase on food packaging. Yet the obesity epidemic continues unchecked. To me this indicates that the people who choose foods based on macronutrients are choosing low-carb, but that most people are not involving macronutrients in their food decisions.