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> Take a look at Apple’s functional organizational structure for an example of an engineering company done right. I don't have an actual refutation here (and c

> Take a look at Apple’s functional organizational structure for an example of an engineering company done right. I don't have an actual refutation here (and certainly don't want to start some kind of Apple flame war) but something about this doesn't seem quite right.

tomnipotent 6y ago
Think about the quality of their hardware products.
- kiseleon 6y ago
  Do you mean the 2019 macbook pro that can't use the iGPU for multiple monitors so it overheats every time I plug in an external monitor? Or do you want the older macbooks that the keyboard would break from dust exposure requiring the entire laptop to be replaced? Or the airpods with non-replaceable batteries so you have to get new airpods for $49+ a piece every couple years? They aren't perfect and IMO haven't been in a long time. That said, the build quality is good, and I chose to get a macbook as my work computer as a software developer and don't regret it, but I wish people would stop putting apple on a pedestal as the example of perfection.
  - tomnipotent 6y ago
    All products have defects, and the Apple hardware defect rates are some of the lowest in the industry. That doesn't change their commitment to product quality and service, and how it compares to their peers. Take a look at eBay and compare any Apple products resale values to any other (and no, it's not just about brand).
    - sdoering 6y ago
      Three in a row for me. I experience the exact same problems OP describes with three MB Pro laptops since 2018. More than 7000 bucks down the drain not calculating the 2100 for repairs. The company I work for had 1-2 percent of devices in repair every week. Not sure if this is just a strange coincidence, but I know of at least one other company in our town with the same scope of the described problem. I know this isn't a popular sentiment with some people, but from experience, I am done with Apple after 28 years of experience. My first was a beautiful Macintosh Classic I still have. Together with a SE 30. Somehow I miss my pre 2018 Macbook Pro.
    - soperj 6y ago
      People still buy over a decade old thinkpads.
      - valuearb 6y ago
        Apple has the highest customer satisfaction levels in the business. Now the butterfly keyboard issues have hurt MBP customer sat levels, but not enough to fall to Lenova/IBM levels.
    - the_duke 6y ago
      What's your source for the low defect numbers?
      - tomnipotent 6y ago
        Consumer Reports ~2015 (little dated and wouldn't include latest gen laptops) https://www.computerworld.com/article/3012211/apples-macbook-air-takes-laptop-reliability-crown.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3012211/apples-macbook... This site includes a few different sources, and shows more or less the same reliability: https://www.geckoandfly.com/6311/the-most-reliable-laptop-survey-best-netbook-reliability-comparison/ https://www.geckoandfly.com/6311/the-most-reliable-laptop-su...
        AshWolfy 6y ago
        I wonder if theres a comparison of device by price point, because i bet apples advantage would be eaten up if they did
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Are claiming the lack of replaceable batteries stopped the AirPods from becoming the biggest selling headphones in the world? Because they are.
- carabiner 6y ago
  They prioritize form over function in their Lightning cables. Inadequate strain relief is a far more consequential problem in an airplane wing. I can't see Apple practices being applicable to mission critical fields like transport engineering (with high regulatory burden). They're different worlds. Apple also simply has a huge amount of money from hardware and software (App store etc.). I suspect they're far looser with resources for their teams than Boeing, whose mechanical/aerospace engineers have salaries a fraction of most Apple engineers. Edit: Overarching point is that Apple has a focus on aesthetics that is far less important in aerospace engineering, and has no experience on ensuring human safety.
  - brokencode 6y ago
    Yes, but they make consumer products and not airplanes. Why would you assume they’d build an airplane the same way they’d build a cheap cable?
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Apple isn’t perfect, no one is. But it’s better than almost everyone else, including Boeing because it does one thing very well. It doesn’t ship products unless they meet a high bar. It never puts schedule first over product quality. Example: original iPad was canceled by Steve Jobs because he didn’t think it was good enough. Instead he had the team enter the Apple phone competition, where it best out the iPod team with its design for the iPhone. Five years later they got to apply all their improvements to make and release a much better iPad. Apple canceled their AirPower charging mat rather than release something that didn’t meet their standards, even after pre-announcing it. When I ran an product development organization, I made it clear that QA wasn’t responsible for our schedules. Sure they needed to test well and quickly to ensure that Product Management had the necessary info to make good release decisions. But their job was journalistic, to fairly and honestly report all issues. It was up to the engineers to find ways to meet quality goals in our schedules. Boeing had test pilots misleading regulators to hide known issues. That’s the exact opposite of a test Organisation should be run.
- JohnTHaller 6y ago
  I'm not sure if the years of poor and failing keyboards on the MacBook or the ongoing stage light screen failures due to the poor decision to permanently connect the ribbon to the screen (turning a $5 repair into a $500 repair) bare this out.
- N1H1L 6y ago
  > Think about the quality of their hardware products. I thought about their butterfly keyboards and didn't want to think further.
brokencode 6y ago
Here’s a great article about their organizational structure: https://hbr.org/2020/11/how-apple-is-organized-for-innovation https://hbr.org/2020/11/how-apple-is-organized-for-innovatio... Like their products or not, Apple has been extraordinarily successful both in terms of sales and critical reception of their products compared to most companies. They have flops too (Siri, HomePod, others), but are mostly successful. The recent buzz about the M1 chip is a perfect example of their industry-leading engineering.
- AshWolfy 6y ago
  Is the M1 that revolutionary? It seems more like the culmination of technology that has been around for years. Rosetta 2 is the most impressive part, and even that is kinda the most obvious method of x86 emulation that doesnt suck
  - dbuder 6y ago
    It looks like an implementation of TSMC's process and similar chips will be available to everyone soon enough.

tomnipotent 6y ago

Think about the quality of their hardware products.

kiseleon 6y ago
Do you mean the 2019 macbook pro that can't use the iGPU for multiple monitors so it overheats every time I plug in an external monitor? Or do you want the older macbooks that the keyboard would break from dust exposure requiring the entire laptop to be replaced? Or the airpods with non-replaceable batteries so you have to get new airpods for $49+ a piece every couple years? They aren't perfect and IMO haven't been in a long time. That said, the build quality is good, and I chose to get a macbook as my work computer as a software developer and don't regret it, but I wish people would stop putting apple on a pedestal as the example of perfection.
- tomnipotent 6y ago
  All products have defects, and the Apple hardware defect rates are some of the lowest in the industry. That doesn't change their commitment to product quality and service, and how it compares to their peers. Take a look at eBay and compare any Apple products resale values to any other (and no, it's not just about brand).
  - sdoering 6y ago
    Three in a row for me. I experience the exact same problems OP describes with three MB Pro laptops since 2018. More than 7000 bucks down the drain not calculating the 2100 for repairs. The company I work for had 1-2 percent of devices in repair every week. Not sure if this is just a strange coincidence, but I know of at least one other company in our town with the same scope of the described problem. I know this isn't a popular sentiment with some people, but from experience, I am done with Apple after 28 years of experience. My first was a beautiful Macintosh Classic I still have. Together with a SE 30. Somehow I miss my pre 2018 Macbook Pro.
  - soperj 6y ago
    People still buy over a decade old thinkpads.
    - valuearb 6y ago
      Apple has the highest customer satisfaction levels in the business. Now the butterfly keyboard issues have hurt MBP customer sat levels, but not enough to fall to Lenova/IBM levels.
  - the_duke 6y ago
    What's your source for the low defect numbers?
    - tomnipotent 6y ago
      Consumer Reports ~2015 (little dated and wouldn't include latest gen laptops) https://www.computerworld.com/article/3012211/apples-macbook-air-takes-laptop-reliability-crown.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3012211/apples-macbook... This site includes a few different sources, and shows more or less the same reliability: https://www.geckoandfly.com/6311/the-most-reliable-laptop-survey-best-netbook-reliability-comparison/ https://www.geckoandfly.com/6311/the-most-reliable-laptop-su...
      - AshWolfy 6y ago
        I wonder if theres a comparison of device by price point, because i bet apples advantage would be eaten up if they did
- valuearb 6y ago
  Are claiming the lack of replaceable batteries stopped the AirPods from becoming the biggest selling headphones in the world? Because they are.
carabiner 6y ago
They prioritize form over function in their Lightning cables. Inadequate strain relief is a far more consequential problem in an airplane wing. I can't see Apple practices being applicable to mission critical fields like transport engineering (with high regulatory burden). They're different worlds. Apple also simply has a huge amount of money from hardware and software (App store etc.). I suspect they're far looser with resources for their teams than Boeing, whose mechanical/aerospace engineers have salaries a fraction of most Apple engineers. Edit: Overarching point is that Apple has a focus on aesthetics that is far less important in aerospace engineering, and has no experience on ensuring human safety.
- brokencode 6y ago
  Yes, but they make consumer products and not airplanes. Why would you assume they’d build an airplane the same way they’d build a cheap cable?
- valuearb 6y ago
  Apple isn’t perfect, no one is. But it’s better than almost everyone else, including Boeing because it does one thing very well. It doesn’t ship products unless they meet a high bar. It never puts schedule first over product quality. Example: original iPad was canceled by Steve Jobs because he didn’t think it was good enough. Instead he had the team enter the Apple phone competition, where it best out the iPod team with its design for the iPhone. Five years later they got to apply all their improvements to make and release a much better iPad. Apple canceled their AirPower charging mat rather than release something that didn’t meet their standards, even after pre-announcing it. When I ran an product development organization, I made it clear that QA wasn’t responsible for our schedules. Sure they needed to test well and quickly to ensure that Product Management had the necessary info to make good release decisions. But their job was journalistic, to fairly and honestly report all issues. It was up to the engineers to find ways to meet quality goals in our schedules. Boeing had test pilots misleading regulators to hide known issues. That’s the exact opposite of a test Organisation should be run.
JohnTHaller 6y ago
I'm not sure if the years of poor and failing keyboards on the MacBook or the ongoing stage light screen failures due to the poor decision to permanently connect the ribbon to the screen (turning a $5 repair into a $500 repair) bare this out.
N1H1L 6y ago
> Think about the quality of their hardware products. I thought about their butterfly keyboards and didn't want to think further.

brokencode 6y ago

Here’s a great article about their organizational structure: https://hbr.org/2020/11/how-apple-is-organized-for-innovation https://hbr.org/2020/11/how-apple-is-organized-for-innovatio... Like their products or not, Apple has been extraordinarily successful both in terms of sales and critical reception of their products compared to most companies. They have flops too (Siri, HomePod, others), but are mostly successful. The recent buzz about the M1 chip is a perfect example of their industry-leading engineering.

AshWolfy 6y ago
Is the M1 that revolutionary? It seems more like the culmination of technology that has been around for years. Rosetta 2 is the most impressive part, and even that is kinda the most obvious method of x86 emulation that doesnt suck
- dbuder 6y ago
  It looks like an implementation of TSMC's process and similar chips will be available to everyone soon enough.