6 ms·

Not normal, not good. Will cause issues for sure. But those computers did not have access to classified information.

paxys 6y ago
> But those computers did not have access to classified information. Got a source for that? You really think a sitting Senator's laptop has zero useful data for a foreign government, or even the opposition party? Heck his browser history or synced texts could have enough blackmail material.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  Useful data != Secret/TS data. If there is any Secret/TS data on these systems, there's already been a security breach and yesterday wasn't special. Unclassified systems are often assumed unsafe/breached to begin with.
  - randylahey 6y ago
    I don't disagree, however... human beings can be lazy, short-sighted or take short-cuts. I wouldn't put it past someone to keep something where it shouldn't be, intentionally or by accident.
    - jjcon 6y ago
      I don’t think you understand how difficult it would be to get classified information on your unclassified laptop and there isn’t a chance in hell you could do it by accident
      - Robin_Message 6y ago
        Just wondering as I have no special knowledge, but suppose I am a senator and I receive a number of classified briefings on a particular issue. Could I use Outlook to take some notes on my thoughts on that issue? Say as a draft e-mail? I don't think there would be anything technical to stop me, and it's not going to set off any automatic exfiltration flags. But those notes could very well need to be classified. Does everyone in the Capitol with access to classified material have the necessary skills and incentives not to make notes about them on their personal computer?
        jjcon 6y ago
        If you are receiving a classified briefing you cannot be on a machine that has internet access - the briefing would be in a secured area with no personal devices and the only machines in that area are airgapped (and they are airgapped forever, no switching back and forth). You could of course write stuff down afterwards in an unsecure place but that is day 1 essential huge fucking deal no no. You don’t even discuss classified info outside a secure area, not in your public office not in the outback not ever. That doesn’t mean people don’t do it but when they do and it is found out it is a really big deal. Accidents do happen and there are protocols in place to deal with them when they occur. 99.9% of these leaks are extremely mundane low tier classification and are due to document misclassification etc. Sometimes the name of a project is classified and is leaked by reference etc but when it comes to actual important stuff people are quite competent at keeping that in secure areas.
        MagnumOpus 6y ago
        Though of course all those rules are subject to Trump's Law: "When you are a star they let you do it". A random member of the military or the administration would go to jail for a long time, a senator especially from the same party as the president would get away with it with impunity.
        astura 6y ago
        >Does everyone in the Capitol with access to classified material have the necessary skills and incentives not to make notes about them on their personal computer? Access to classified information comes with training on properly handing classified information. Mishandling classified information is a crime if you have a security clearance
      - richardwhiuk 6y ago
        You write an email that references something you read in a classified briefing? Nancy Pelosi is part of the Gang of Eight - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Eight_(intelligence) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Eight_(intelligence) which is briefed on National Security matters by the Executive Branch (this is top secret, special forces operations style stuff).
        Jtsummers 6y ago
        That's actually how a lot of real-world classified data leak incidents happen. Either someone records a classified fact/detail on an unclassified system through carelessness or lack of caution, or compiles a set of facts that are (in aggregate) classified but individually unclassified. The latter can be particularly pernicious as it's hard to know the aggregate classification. I may be able to say in separate contexts "The XF-42 is capable of exceeding 1200 nautical miles per hour" and "The XF-42 is capable of flying in excess of 60k feet" but placing the two facts together can actually be classified (in practice, usually more than two details).
        setr 6y ago
        This seems nonsensical -- why are the sum of the parts more classified than the individual? If I put together a long list of facts about the XF-42, it's classified, but if I separate each item onto a different page and tell someone else how to recompile the information (eg page numbers), it's fine? I can't imagine a scenario where this model makes sense -- ignoring absurdities like classifying basic facts (sky is blue) and words (help) due to cascading classification. It seems to me the rule should be that of poisoning -- any information in a document with classification X poisons the rest of the document to the same classification; or rather, a document classification is the maximum of its children
        jjcon 6y ago
        I’ve never seen exactly what they are talking about but what they may be getting at is actually information compartmentalization - group A can know fact A and group B can know fact B but neither group can know AB. Some higher up official can know AB but must keep those facts separated in documentation because they may share portions with the groups. Having said that - both A and B are classified. You can’t have unclassified compartmentalized info.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- jaywalk 6y ago
  There's a difference between the personal data you mentioned, which is on all of our computers, and actual classified information.
- snowwrestler 6y ago
  I know a lot of people who worked for members of Congress and a few who do now. Computers sitting on desks in regular Congressional offices do not have access to classified materials. Most members of Congress or their staff do not have access to classified material at all. There is a lot of private information on those computers, though, and the biggest risks there are the use of that info to harass staff and/or manipulation of it to feed conspiracy theories (see: Pizzagate). Blackmail material is extremely unlikely since these are all government computers and everyone who works there knows they are subject to oversight.
jjk166 6y ago
There are lots of things to be concerned about besides classified information - such as emails and personal files of congress members and staffers - but even further it's not just what you can get off of the computer, it's what you can put on it.
- jjcon 6y ago
  > such as emails and personal files of congress members and staffers All of which is not of national security concern and most of which is already subject to public access via foia
  - OminousWeapons 6y ago
    Ignoring the potential for harvesting credentials and then abusing reused creds, the ability to send emails from a congressional email account is a disaster in and of itself. Imagine if someone sent out an email from Nancy Pelosi's email account validating Q Anon theories for example. Good luck ever walking that back.
  - anonAndOn 6y ago
    Can I get a senator's passwords to Facebook and Twitter from a FOIA? no? Ok, what about a key logger on his/her staff computer?
    - olyjohn 6y ago
      I'm sure Windows Defender will take care of that!

> But those computers did not have access to classified information. Got a source for that? You really think a sitting Senator's laptop has zero useful data for a foreign government, or even the opposition party? Heck his browser history or synced texts could have enough blackmail material.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Jtsummers 6y ago
Useful data != Secret/TS data. If there is any Secret/TS data on these systems, there's already been a security breach and yesterday wasn't special. Unclassified systems are often assumed unsafe/breached to begin with.
- randylahey 6y ago
  I don't disagree, however... human beings can be lazy, short-sighted or take short-cuts. I wouldn't put it past someone to keep something where it shouldn't be, intentionally or by accident.
  - jjcon 6y ago
    I don’t think you understand how difficult it would be to get classified information on your unclassified laptop and there isn’t a chance in hell you could do it by accident
    - Robin_Message 6y ago
      Just wondering as I have no special knowledge, but suppose I am a senator and I receive a number of classified briefings on a particular issue. Could I use Outlook to take some notes on my thoughts on that issue? Say as a draft e-mail? I don't think there would be anything technical to stop me, and it's not going to set off any automatic exfiltration flags. But those notes could very well need to be classified. Does everyone in the Capitol with access to classified material have the necessary skills and incentives not to make notes about them on their personal computer?
      - jjcon 6y ago
        If you are receiving a classified briefing you cannot be on a machine that has internet access - the briefing would be in a secured area with no personal devices and the only machines in that area are airgapped (and they are airgapped forever, no switching back and forth). You could of course write stuff down afterwards in an unsecure place but that is day 1 essential huge fucking deal no no. You don’t even discuss classified info outside a secure area, not in your public office not in the outback not ever. That doesn’t mean people don’t do it but when they do and it is found out it is a really big deal. Accidents do happen and there are protocols in place to deal with them when they occur. 99.9% of these leaks are extremely mundane low tier classification and are due to document misclassification etc. Sometimes the name of a project is classified and is leaked by reference etc but when it comes to actual important stuff people are quite competent at keeping that in secure areas.
        MagnumOpus 6y ago
        Though of course all those rules are subject to Trump's Law: "When you are a star they let you do it". A random member of the military or the administration would go to jail for a long time, a senator especially from the same party as the president would get away with it with impunity.
      - astura 6y ago
        >Does everyone in the Capitol with access to classified material have the necessary skills and incentives not to make notes about them on their personal computer? Access to classified information comes with training on properly handing classified information. Mishandling classified information is a crime if you have a security clearance
    - richardwhiuk 6y ago
      You write an email that references something you read in a classified briefing? Nancy Pelosi is part of the Gang of Eight - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Eight_(intelligence) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Eight_(intelligence) which is briefed on National Security matters by the Executive Branch (this is top secret, special forces operations style stuff).
      - Jtsummers 6y ago
        That's actually how a lot of real-world classified data leak incidents happen. Either someone records a classified fact/detail on an unclassified system through carelessness or lack of caution, or compiles a set of facts that are (in aggregate) classified but individually unclassified. The latter can be particularly pernicious as it's hard to know the aggregate classification. I may be able to say in separate contexts "The XF-42 is capable of exceeding 1200 nautical miles per hour" and "The XF-42 is capable of flying in excess of 60k feet" but placing the two facts together can actually be classified (in practice, usually more than two details).
        setr 6y ago
        This seems nonsensical -- why are the sum of the parts more classified than the individual? If I put together a long list of facts about the XF-42, it's classified, but if I separate each item onto a different page and tell someone else how to recompile the information (eg page numbers), it's fine? I can't imagine a scenario where this model makes sense -- ignoring absurdities like classifying basic facts (sky is blue) and words (help) due to cascading classification. It seems to me the rule should be that of poisoning -- any information in a document with classification X poisons the rest of the document to the same classification; or rather, a document classification is the maximum of its children
        jjcon 6y ago
        I’ve never seen exactly what they are talking about but what they may be getting at is actually information compartmentalization - group A can know fact A and group B can know fact B but neither group can know AB. Some higher up official can know AB but must keep those facts separated in documentation because they may share portions with the groups. Having said that - both A and B are classified. You can’t have unclassified compartmentalized info.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
jaywalk 6y ago
There's a difference between the personal data you mentioned, which is on all of our computers, and actual classified information.
snowwrestler 6y ago
I know a lot of people who worked for members of Congress and a few who do now. Computers sitting on desks in regular Congressional offices do not have access to classified materials. Most members of Congress or their staff do not have access to classified material at all. There is a lot of private information on those computers, though, and the biggest risks there are the use of that info to harass staff and/or manipulation of it to feed conspiracy theories (see: Pizzagate). Blackmail material is extremely unlikely since these are all government computers and everyone who works there knows they are subject to oversight.

jjk166 6y ago

There are lots of things to be concerned about besides classified information - such as emails and personal files of congress members and staffers - but even further it's not just what you can get off of the computer, it's what you can put on it.

jjcon 6y ago
> such as emails and personal files of congress members and staffers All of which is not of national security concern and most of which is already subject to public access via foia
- OminousWeapons 6y ago
  Ignoring the potential for harvesting credentials and then abusing reused creds, the ability to send emails from a congressional email account is a disaster in and of itself. Imagine if someone sent out an email from Nancy Pelosi's email account validating Q Anon theories for example. Good luck ever walking that back.
- anonAndOn 6y ago
  Can I get a senator's passwords to Facebook and Twitter from a FOIA? no? Ok, what about a key logger on his/her staff computer?
  - olyjohn 6y ago
    I'm sure Windows Defender will take care of that!