5 ms·

Apple's hardware and build quality in superior then virtually anything else on the market, even at the same price point. You're talking about remote stationary

by BluSyn 6y ago

Apple's hardware and build quality in superior then virtually anything else on the market, even at the same price point. You're talking about remote stationary machines, not single portable devices that can do everything you need. Most people don't have that. Linux isn't just a secondary OS you run on VM, many want to run it as a primary desktop OS with the best hardware available. A Dell XPS laptop may be more compatible with Linux out of the box, but it falls short on every other metric.

wil421 6y ago
Apple's hardware quality is the way it is because they control the software and hardware. Looking System76 I can see why people would want a Mac. Purism looks as decent as an XPS. You also pay a hefty premium for MacOS if you are just running Linux.
- josephg 6y ago
  > You also pay a hefty premium for MacOS if you are just running Linux. You can’t run Linux on the M1 yet, but will this still true when you can? How does price / performance of the M1 air compare to x86 laptops? (Or the Mac mini vs other small form factor PCs?)
- gameswithgo 6y ago
  That is not really the case in any meaningful way. I mean until just now they did not control the cpu or gpu on their laptops and desktops.
  - remexre 6y ago
    Well, I think it's fair to say that "among the Unix-derived OSes, macOS is the one with the best hardware support for the hardware it typically runs on." I've wasted months of my life futzing with Broadcom WLAN cards...
snapcore 6y ago
Statistical information from repair places suggests otherwise for build quality. For instance: https://www.appleworld.today/blog/2020/6/1/apples-mac-get-a-b-in-rescuecoms-latest-computer-reliability-report https://www.appleworld.today/blog/2020/6/1/apples-mac-get-a-... It varies by year and place though.
- uncledave 6y ago
  Can’t take that seriously at all. MS ranks #1 and I actually know someone who works at a large customer and their surface devices last 12-18 months. They had over 500 of them. They don’t send them for repair because the warranty is a year so they are scrap then. No statistical contribution to that study. They are replacing them with Lenovo units with 3y NBD repair and support and they are cheaper. As for Apple, you buy a 3 year warranty with AppleCare for less than the surface costs and that includes accidental damage for a small excess fee per event.
  - cbozeman 6y ago
    > As for Apple, you buy a 3 year warranty with AppleCare for less than the surface costs and that includes accidental damage for a small excess fee per event. What? Maybe this is true for the M1-based MacBooks now, but I bought my Surface Book 3 with my Microsoft Business account (which was made for me for free when I bought my Surface Book 2 by a manager at the Dallas, TX Microsoft Store) and for $249 I got a three year warranty with three accidental damage incidents, also with no deductible. Yes, I had to pony up for a year of Office 365 for $69 to get the normally-$349 warranty for $100 off, but I already use Office 365 yearly sub anyway, so adding on an extra year of something I was going to buy anyway, for $100 off a 3-year, 3-incident, deductible-free warranty isn't exactly a "hard sell". Although the only problem I've ever had with Microsoft's hardware products was my original Surface Book, and I'll admit, that was a miserable experience, but I had zero problems with my SB2 and none so far with my SB3. Having said all that, I might actually switch over to Apple if they had a 15" 2-in-1 like my SB3. In order to functionally replace my Surface Book 3, I have to buy a $1499 12.9" iPad Pro, a $129 Apple Pencil 2nd gen, and a $2299 MacBook Pro M1. Adding Apple Care+ and tax brings the total up to $4670. But I also now have the problem of having to lug around two devices instead of just once as I do with the Surface Book 3. My totally pimped out Surface Book 3 + warranty + Office 365 1-year sub was $4350. That's the Quadro RTX 3000 MaxQ version also. Right now, the Apple products have the performance advantage, I can't deny that. But they didn't have that when I bought my Surface Book 3, and Microsoft isn't going to sit on their ass. Their ARM-based Surface Pro X is following Microsoft trends perfectly. The first version of all their hardware ranges anywhere from a total joke to slightly underwhelming. But by the time 3rd and 4th iterations, Microsoft has their shit together. I fully expect that in 2-3 years, a Microsoft ARM-based Surface Book 5/6 will be a serious MacBook Pro contender, while also winning over users like me for the 2-in-1 aspect.
jamespo 6y ago
Realistically how many people buy macbooks to run linux as a primary OS? And subject themselves to mac keyboards to boot.
- selectodude 6y ago
  Linus Torvalds worked on a MacBook Air for years.
  - MegaDeKay 6y ago
    Perhaps, but he has been using an XPS 13 since at least 2016. https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-reveals-his-favorite-programming-laptop/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-reveals-his-fav... https://www.zdnet.com/article/look-whats-inside-linus-torvalds-latest-linux-development-pc/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/look-whats-inside-linus-torval...
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Save the 2015-2019 MBP keyboard debacle, Apple's keyboards are among the best on the market. As for how many people run Linux on bare metal on the Mac. That's hard to guess. Likely not a ton. But then... not a ton of anyone runs Linux as their primary desktop/ laptop so that's not surprising.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >And subject themselves to mac keyboards to boot. The "fiasco keyboard" period aside (which is now 1.5+ years over, and which reliability aside, some do prefer its feel), Mac keyboards have been quite fine. But one famous person that used to buy Macbooks to run Linux as a primary one (and used an Air as his daily driver for years) was a certain Linus Torvalds. (Previously he also used an Apple G5 tower for his main desktop).
- pimeys 6y ago
  If the direction is closed hardware, soon we don't have any hardware to run Linux. And I, for one, prefer an open operating system always over a proprietary one. I'm a hacker and I want hacker's OS. I'd be interested about Apple's hardware, but their software support for other than their own is abysmal. The work done here is worth of praise, even if it means reverse-engineering the hardware.
ernst_klim 6y ago
> Apple's hardware and build quality in superior then virtually anything else on the market, even at the same price point. I don't see how it's superior. For that money you can buy Dell XPS or Thinkpad of same quality or better. > but it falls short on every other metric So far I didn't see any evidence of that. That may be true in 2011-2012 where not many laptops had hires screens with decent matrices, but definitely not relevant today.
- Lio 6y ago
  I have a 2014 MacBook Pro and a Dell XPS 13 9370 Developer Edition. I like both very much. I'm not sure I would say that the XPS is equal or better quality than the MBP though. The trackpad isn't better than the Mac's and neither is the case construction. I prefer the aluminium unibody to the carbon fibre (rubberised plastic) stuck to aluminium plates of the XPS. I really like the XPS though and would buy another if it broke. i.e. I wouldn't buy a Mac to run Linux but when Apple finally stop supporting my MBP I see no reason not to install Linux on it and extend its life. Especially as I like Linux as a desktop OS.

by BluSyn 6y ago

wil421 6y ago

Apple's hardware quality is the way it is because they control the software and hardware. Looking System76 I can see why people would want a Mac. Purism looks as decent as an XPS. You also pay a hefty premium for MacOS if you are just running Linux.

josephg 6y ago
> You also pay a hefty premium for MacOS if you are just running Linux. You can’t run Linux on the M1 yet, but will this still true when you can? How does price / performance of the M1 air compare to x86 laptops? (Or the Mac mini vs other small form factor PCs?)
gameswithgo 6y ago
That is not really the case in any meaningful way. I mean until just now they did not control the cpu or gpu on their laptops and desktops.
- remexre 6y ago
  Well, I think it's fair to say that "among the Unix-derived OSes, macOS is the one with the best hardware support for the hardware it typically runs on." I've wasted months of my life futzing with Broadcom WLAN cards...

snapcore 6y ago

Statistical information from repair places suggests otherwise for build quality. For instance: https://www.appleworld.today/blog/2020/6/1/apples-mac-get-a-b-in-rescuecoms-latest-computer-reliability-report https://www.appleworld.today/blog/2020/6/1/apples-mac-get-a-... It varies by year and place though.

uncledave 6y ago
Can’t take that seriously at all. MS ranks #1 and I actually know someone who works at a large customer and their surface devices last 12-18 months. They had over 500 of them. They don’t send them for repair because the warranty is a year so they are scrap then. No statistical contribution to that study. They are replacing them with Lenovo units with 3y NBD repair and support and they are cheaper. As for Apple, you buy a 3 year warranty with AppleCare for less than the surface costs and that includes accidental damage for a small excess fee per event.
- cbozeman 6y ago
  > As for Apple, you buy a 3 year warranty with AppleCare for less than the surface costs and that includes accidental damage for a small excess fee per event. What? Maybe this is true for the M1-based MacBooks now, but I bought my Surface Book 3 with my Microsoft Business account (which was made for me for free when I bought my Surface Book 2 by a manager at the Dallas, TX Microsoft Store) and for $249 I got a three year warranty with three accidental damage incidents, also with no deductible. Yes, I had to pony up for a year of Office 365 for $69 to get the normally-$349 warranty for $100 off, but I already use Office 365 yearly sub anyway, so adding on an extra year of something I was going to buy anyway, for $100 off a 3-year, 3-incident, deductible-free warranty isn't exactly a "hard sell". Although the only problem I've ever had with Microsoft's hardware products was my original Surface Book, and I'll admit, that was a miserable experience, but I had zero problems with my SB2 and none so far with my SB3. Having said all that, I might actually switch over to Apple if they had a 15" 2-in-1 like my SB3. In order to functionally replace my Surface Book 3, I have to buy a $1499 12.9" iPad Pro, a $129 Apple Pencil 2nd gen, and a $2299 MacBook Pro M1. Adding Apple Care+ and tax brings the total up to $4670. But I also now have the problem of having to lug around two devices instead of just once as I do with the Surface Book 3. My totally pimped out Surface Book 3 + warranty + Office 365 1-year sub was $4350. That's the Quadro RTX 3000 MaxQ version also. Right now, the Apple products have the performance advantage, I can't deny that. But they didn't have that when I bought my Surface Book 3, and Microsoft isn't going to sit on their ass. Their ARM-based Surface Pro X is following Microsoft trends perfectly. The first version of all their hardware ranges anywhere from a total joke to slightly underwhelming. But by the time 3rd and 4th iterations, Microsoft has their shit together. I fully expect that in 2-3 years, a Microsoft ARM-based Surface Book 5/6 will be a serious MacBook Pro contender, while also winning over users like me for the 2-in-1 aspect.

jamespo 6y ago

Realistically how many people buy macbooks to run linux as a primary OS? And subject themselves to mac keyboards to boot.

selectodude 6y ago
Linus Torvalds worked on a MacBook Air for years.
- MegaDeKay 6y ago
  Perhaps, but he has been using an XPS 13 since at least 2016. https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-reveals-his-favorite-programming-laptop/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-reveals-his-fav... https://www.zdnet.com/article/look-whats-inside-linus-torvalds-latest-linux-development-pc/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/look-whats-inside-linus-torval...
ogre_codes 6y ago
Save the 2015-2019 MBP keyboard debacle, Apple's keyboards are among the best on the market. As for how many people run Linux on bare metal on the Mac. That's hard to guess. Likely not a ton. But then... not a ton of anyone runs Linux as their primary desktop/ laptop so that's not surprising.
coldtea 6y ago
>And subject themselves to mac keyboards to boot. The "fiasco keyboard" period aside (which is now 1.5+ years over, and which reliability aside, some do prefer its feel), Mac keyboards have been quite fine. But one famous person that used to buy Macbooks to run Linux as a primary one (and used an Air as his daily driver for years) was a certain Linus Torvalds. (Previously he also used an Apple G5 tower for his main desktop).
pimeys 6y ago
If the direction is closed hardware, soon we don't have any hardware to run Linux. And I, for one, prefer an open operating system always over a proprietary one. I'm a hacker and I want hacker's OS. I'd be interested about Apple's hardware, but their software support for other than their own is abysmal. The work done here is worth of praise, even if it means reverse-engineering the hardware.

ernst_klim 6y ago

> Apple's hardware and build quality in superior then virtually anything else on the market, even at the same price point. I don't see how it's superior. For that money you can buy Dell XPS or Thinkpad of same quality or better. > but it falls short on every other metric So far I didn't see any evidence of that. That may be true in 2011-2012 where not many laptops had hires screens with decent matrices, but definitely not relevant today.

Lio 6y ago
I have a 2014 MacBook Pro and a Dell XPS 13 9370 Developer Edition. I like both very much. I'm not sure I would say that the XPS is equal or better quality than the MBP though. The trackpad isn't better than the Mac's and neither is the case construction. I prefer the aluminium unibody to the carbon fibre (rubberised plastic) stuck to aluminium plates of the XPS. I really like the XPS though and would buy another if it broke. i.e. I wouldn't buy a Mac to run Linux but when Apple finally stop supporting my MBP I see no reason not to install Linux on it and extend its life. Especially as I like Linux as a desktop OS.