7 ms·

Can someone explain why they would buy a Mac and install linux? I used to dual boot windows for school and when I first switched to windows I had an old laptop

by wil421 6y ago

Can someone explain why they would buy a Mac and install linux? I used to dual boot windows for school and when I first switched to windows I had an old laptop's backup in bootcamp. Cross-platform software is much more ubiquitous than 5-10 years ago. For linux I always used another box or just run a VM. Nowadays my laptop can ssh or Remote Desktop into a more powerful machine. I have a custom built widows box, a custom built NAS running FreeNas (FreeBSD), 2 RPi's running Raspbian, and a not always linux box based on old hardware. There is a machine big or small to do things or play with. My VPN allows me to connect from anywhere. What are you guys doing that you have to install linux instead of running a VM or remotely connecting to a linux box? If it's just for the sake of knowledge I can understand it. Apple's touch pad experience in MacOS is the best in the market and it is always very different in Windows and Linux. The XPS, Lenovo and smaller vendors really make killer Linux/Windows laptops that have much more options than Macs.

londons_explore 6y ago
Right now the draw is the M1 CPU... If Linux had software support for it, it would probably be the best platform for Linux (server) software development.
wmf 6y ago
The result may be the fastest Linux machine available (by some metrics).
- sliken 6y ago
  Single core performance, maybe. Not much else though. But the apple's do quite well on perf/$, perf/watt. The M1 mini is pretty competitive at $700 for a fast silent desktop.
  - wlesieutre 6y ago
    You mentioned performance/watt - in user terms, battery life is a huge advantage of this hardware. The official specs of the 13" MBP are 17 hours of web browsing, 20 hours of video playback. I assume it won't be as long in Linux but it'll still be longer than a lightweight and high performance x86 laptop.
BluSyn 6y ago
Apple's hardware and build quality in superior then virtually anything else on the market, even at the same price point. You're talking about remote stationary machines, not single portable devices that can do everything you need. Most people don't have that. Linux isn't just a secondary OS you run on VM, many want to run it as a primary desktop OS with the best hardware available. A Dell XPS laptop may be more compatible with Linux out of the box, but it falls short on every other metric.
- wil421 6y ago
  Apple's hardware quality is the way it is because they control the software and hardware. Looking System76 I can see why people would want a Mac. Purism looks as decent as an XPS. You also pay a hefty premium for MacOS if you are just running Linux.
  - josephg 6y ago
    > You also pay a hefty premium for MacOS if you are just running Linux. You can’t run Linux on the M1 yet, but will this still true when you can? How does price / performance of the M1 air compare to x86 laptops? (Or the Mac mini vs other small form factor PCs?)
  - gameswithgo 6y ago
    That is not really the case in any meaningful way. I mean until just now they did not control the cpu or gpu on their laptops and desktops.
    - remexre 6y ago
      Well, I think it's fair to say that "among the Unix-derived OSes, macOS is the one with the best hardware support for the hardware it typically runs on." I've wasted months of my life futzing with Broadcom WLAN cards...
- snapcore 6y ago
  Statistical information from repair places suggests otherwise for build quality. For instance: https://www.appleworld.today/blog/2020/6/1/apples-mac-get-a-b-in-rescuecoms-latest-computer-reliability-report https://www.appleworld.today/blog/2020/6/1/apples-mac-get-a-... It varies by year and place though.
remexre 6y ago
For "why not macOS on M1," I'm one of those people who customizes their WM to reduce number of keystrokes / mouse usage to a minimum, and that's only really well-served by the free operating systems' WMs. For "why not Linux on not-M1," I vastly prefer reading and writing AArch64 assembly to amd64... And the battery-life+performance claims of M1 are certainly extremely exciting, coming from a Pinebook Pro (which has the battery life, but pretty wimpy performance by comparison).
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ur-whale 6y ago
> Can someone explain why they would buy a Mac and install linux? Because OSX, besides being a user prison, is certainly far from being as good as their hardware.
- baggy_trough 6y ago
  Quite some prison that allows you to install linux and whatever other software you'd like.
  - happymellon 6y ago
    Really? Because my Mac by default nags the crap out of anything downloaded, and does this best to block applications that haven't paid various Apple Taxes.
    - baggy_trough 6y ago
      I don’t have that experience.
      - happymellon 6y ago
        How can you not? Unless you sign your app with your Dev cert, that you pay Apple for, Apple won't let your app run without going under the hood and fuck around with permissions.
        baggy_trough 6y ago
        Fact check: false.
        happymellon 6y ago
        https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Software-from-Unsigned-Developers-on-a-Mac https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Software-from-Unsigned-Devel... Nope. fact check true. Unsigned software will not run on a Mac without having to jump through hoops to enable each app. I predominantly use open source software, and a lot is not signed.
colonwqbang 6y ago
Personally I think Apple's new hardware looks good (both inside and outside) but their software doesn't really impress me. I would rather run standard Linux software like I usually do. I certainly won't buy any Apple hardware until that is a viable option. I'm also not interested in running my daily driver OS as a VM client.
gameswithgo 6y ago
I would very much like the Mac hardware, but I do not like the Mac operating system, or the trend of making it harder and harder to install apps from the store.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> Can someone explain why they would buy a Mac and install linux? Same reason you run Linux on a Dell or Other laptop. Because you prefer Linux. In Apple's case, the M1 is particularly appealing right now. For me personally, this project is mostly interesting as insurance for if/ when Apple ships a version of MacOS I don't care for or stops supporting the M1. That's likely... 10 years out, but you never know.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  Apple deprecates support for old Macs in new macOS releases after 6 to 7 years. In some cases it's even sooner, like with the Macs that were left behind in the jump from 32-bit to 64-bit Intel processors.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    Apple has been increasing the length of support for devices over the past 10 years though. Many years they don't drop support for any Macs. That said... it would be fantastic to have Linux as a backup.
DCKing 6y ago
I have a 2012 Macbook Air that's still a great piece of hardware. Still great for light tasks and actually not too bad for heavier ones. It has very few moving/active parts - just a CPU fan and battery - so it doesn't require that much maintenance to keep chugging. Problem is, my official macOS security updates end end of next year. 10 years of support is alright I guess, but what do I do, throw it out and add it to the ewaste pile? I think not. I can give it a second life as a desktop or server (great idle power consumption) with Linux or any of the BSDs. If I buy a 2022 Macbook Air, I'd like to repeat this process for it in 2032. Moore's law is dead, treasure your hardware.
coldtea 6y ago
>Can someone explain why they would buy a Mac and install linux? One reason is to devote an older machine to Linux (M1 models are still new, but they wont be in 3-4 years. And in 6-7 years they might not be supported by new then MacOS releases at all (only security fixes). When someone gets the M4 or MX, they might want to retire the M1 models, or use them for server/supportive roles with Linux on them. Others just prefer Mac hardware (Linus Torvalds himself was a big fan of the early Macbook Air, which we used with Linux, and has welcomed the M1 model as well) but Linux software for various reasons. I, for one, ocassionally wish to boot to full native Linux for some stuff. I have several Linux computers I use too, but I usually use those headless, whereas a Mac laptop would be great with a good supported Linux. >What are you guys doing that you have to install linux instead of running a VM or remotely connecting to a linux box? If it's just for the sake of knowledge I can understand it. Besides repurposing an old Mac, even running a desktop environment as your primary or secondary driver is much faster and usable with bare metal (as opposed to a VM) and, of course, impossible with remote boxes (X forwarding aside, which is not workable as raw native desktop).
- jiofih 6y ago
  I use a 2008 MacBook and it still receives software updates (though a lot of modern software won’t run on it).
heavyset_go 6y ago
Apple deprecates support for old Macs in new macOS releases after about 6 to 7 years, and Linux support on Macs released before 2016 is really good. There are features that are unique to Linux, like cgroups and KVM, that are nice to use on my main OS. The kernel itself is incredibly configurable and extensible, whereas on macOS the kernel is locked away and Apple has deprecated foreign kext support. Another example is Linux's native FUSE support. I can use an updated version of sshfs on Linux that isn't available on macOS and solves problems I had with sshfs on macOS. I have to use closed source software to even use FUSE on macOS. Using Linux on a VM or over SSH to do things I couldn't do on macOS was frustrating, and it's a breath of fresh air to run Linux natively. Also, I prefer Plasma Desktop to the macOS desktop shell. KWin is scriptable, and KDE is really nice. > Apple's touch pad experience in MacOS is the best in the market and it is always very different in Windows and Linux. I disagree with this. Libinput is configurable and its adaptive acceleration profile feels more natural to me.
fulafel 6y ago
One niche iuse is that it lets you legally run macOS in a VM under Linux, I think. Which you might want to do if you have some stuff that only works under macOS, like iPhone app builds, but you otherwise need or prefer Linux. But they're often all around ok machines for general use too if you're not too price conscious and/or your employer just hands them out to everyone.

by wil421 6y ago

londons_explore 6y ago

Right now the draw is the M1 CPU... If Linux had software support for it, it would probably be the best platform for Linux (server) software development.

wmf 6y ago

The result may be the fastest Linux machine available (by some metrics).

sliken 6y ago
Single core performance, maybe. Not much else though. But the apple's do quite well on perf/$, perf/watt. The M1 mini is pretty competitive at $700 for a fast silent desktop.
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  You mentioned performance/watt - in user terms, battery life is a huge advantage of this hardware. The official specs of the 13" MBP are 17 hours of web browsing, 20 hours of video playback. I assume it won't be as long in Linux but it'll still be longer than a lightweight and high performance x86 laptop.

BluSyn 6y ago

Apple's hardware and build quality in superior then virtually anything else on the market, even at the same price point. You're talking about remote stationary machines, not single portable devices that can do everything you need. Most people don't have that. Linux isn't just a secondary OS you run on VM, many want to run it as a primary desktop OS with the best hardware available. A Dell XPS laptop may be more compatible with Linux out of the box, but it falls short on every other metric.

wil421 6y ago
Apple's hardware quality is the way it is because they control the software and hardware. Looking System76 I can see why people would want a Mac. Purism looks as decent as an XPS. You also pay a hefty premium for MacOS if you are just running Linux.
- josephg 6y ago
  > You also pay a hefty premium for MacOS if you are just running Linux. You can’t run Linux on the M1 yet, but will this still true when you can? How does price / performance of the M1 air compare to x86 laptops? (Or the Mac mini vs other small form factor PCs?)
- gameswithgo 6y ago
  That is not really the case in any meaningful way. I mean until just now they did not control the cpu or gpu on their laptops and desktops.
  - remexre 6y ago
    Well, I think it's fair to say that "among the Unix-derived OSes, macOS is the one with the best hardware support for the hardware it typically runs on." I've wasted months of my life futzing with Broadcom WLAN cards...
snapcore 6y ago
Statistical information from repair places suggests otherwise for build quality. For instance: https://www.appleworld.today/blog/2020/6/1/apples-mac-get-a-b-in-rescuecoms-latest-computer-reliability-report https://www.appleworld.today/blog/2020/6/1/apples-mac-get-a-... It varies by year and place though.

remexre 6y ago

For "why not macOS on M1," I'm one of those people who customizes their WM to reduce number of keystrokes / mouse usage to a minimum, and that's only really well-served by the free operating systems' WMs. For "why not Linux on not-M1," I vastly prefer reading and writing AArch64 assembly to amd64... And the battery-life+performance claims of M1 are certainly extremely exciting, coming from a Pinebook Pro (which has the battery life, but pretty wimpy performance by comparison).

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ur-whale 6y ago

> Can someone explain why they would buy a Mac and install linux? Because OSX, besides being a user prison, is certainly far from being as good as their hardware.

baggy_trough 6y ago
Quite some prison that allows you to install linux and whatever other software you'd like.
- happymellon 6y ago
  Really? Because my Mac by default nags the crap out of anything downloaded, and does this best to block applications that haven't paid various Apple Taxes.
  - baggy_trough 6y ago
    I don’t have that experience.
    - happymellon 6y ago
      How can you not? Unless you sign your app with your Dev cert, that you pay Apple for, Apple won't let your app run without going under the hood and fuck around with permissions.
      - baggy_trough 6y ago
        Fact check: false.
        happymellon 6y ago
        https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Software-from-Unsigned-Developers-on-a-Mac https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Software-from-Unsigned-Devel... Nope. fact check true. Unsigned software will not run on a Mac without having to jump through hoops to enable each app. I predominantly use open source software, and a lot is not signed.

colonwqbang 6y ago

Personally I think Apple's new hardware looks good (both inside and outside) but their software doesn't really impress me. I would rather run standard Linux software like I usually do. I certainly won't buy any Apple hardware until that is a viable option. I'm also not interested in running my daily driver OS as a VM client.

gameswithgo 6y ago

I would very much like the Mac hardware, but I do not like the Mac operating system, or the trend of making it harder and harder to install apps from the store.

ogre_codes 6y ago

> Can someone explain why they would buy a Mac and install linux? Same reason you run Linux on a Dell or Other laptop. Because you prefer Linux. In Apple's case, the M1 is particularly appealing right now. For me personally, this project is mostly interesting as insurance for if/ when Apple ships a version of MacOS I don't care for or stops supporting the M1. That's likely... 10 years out, but you never know.

heavyset_go 6y ago
Apple deprecates support for old Macs in new macOS releases after 6 to 7 years. In some cases it's even sooner, like with the Macs that were left behind in the jump from 32-bit to 64-bit Intel processors.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Apple has been increasing the length of support for devices over the past 10 years though. Many years they don't drop support for any Macs. That said... it would be fantastic to have Linux as a backup.

DCKing 6y ago

I have a 2012 Macbook Air that's still a great piece of hardware. Still great for light tasks and actually not too bad for heavier ones. It has very few moving/active parts - just a CPU fan and battery - so it doesn't require that much maintenance to keep chugging. Problem is, my official macOS security updates end end of next year. 10 years of support is alright I guess, but what do I do, throw it out and add it to the ewaste pile? I think not. I can give it a second life as a desktop or server (great idle power consumption) with Linux or any of the BSDs. If I buy a 2022 Macbook Air, I'd like to repeat this process for it in 2032. Moore's law is dead, treasure your hardware.

coldtea 6y ago

>Can someone explain why they would buy a Mac and install linux? One reason is to devote an older machine to Linux (M1 models are still new, but they wont be in 3-4 years. And in 6-7 years they might not be supported by new then MacOS releases at all (only security fixes). When someone gets the M4 or MX, they might want to retire the M1 models, or use them for server/supportive roles with Linux on them. Others just prefer Mac hardware (Linus Torvalds himself was a big fan of the early Macbook Air, which we used with Linux, and has welcomed the M1 model as well) but Linux software for various reasons. I, for one, ocassionally wish to boot to full native Linux for some stuff. I have several Linux computers I use too, but I usually use those headless, whereas a Mac laptop would be great with a good supported Linux. >What are you guys doing that you have to install linux instead of running a VM or remotely connecting to a linux box? If it's just for the sake of knowledge I can understand it. Besides repurposing an old Mac, even running a desktop environment as your primary or secondary driver is much faster and usable with bare metal (as opposed to a VM) and, of course, impossible with remote boxes (X forwarding aside, which is not workable as raw native desktop).

jiofih 6y ago
I use a 2008 MacBook and it still receives software updates (though a lot of modern software won’t run on it).

heavyset_go 6y ago

Apple deprecates support for old Macs in new macOS releases after about 6 to 7 years, and Linux support on Macs released before 2016 is really good. There are features that are unique to Linux, like cgroups and KVM, that are nice to use on my main OS. The kernel itself is incredibly configurable and extensible, whereas on macOS the kernel is locked away and Apple has deprecated foreign kext support. Another example is Linux's native FUSE support. I can use an updated version of sshfs on Linux that isn't available on macOS and solves problems I had with sshfs on macOS. I have to use closed source software to even use FUSE on macOS. Using Linux on a VM or over SSH to do things I couldn't do on macOS was frustrating, and it's a breath of fresh air to run Linux natively. Also, I prefer Plasma Desktop to the macOS desktop shell. KWin is scriptable, and KDE is really nice. > Apple's touch pad experience in MacOS is the best in the market and it is always very different in Windows and Linux. I disagree with this. Libinput is configurable and its adaptive acceleration profile feels more natural to me.

fulafel 6y ago

One niche iuse is that it lets you legally run macOS in a VM under Linux, I think. Which you might want to do if you have some stuff that only works under macOS, like iPhone app builds, but you otherwise need or prefer Linux. But they're often all around ok machines for general use too if you're not too price conscious and/or your employer just hands them out to everyone.