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Batteries are being disrupted by hydrogen though. It's unlikely we'll see this all-electric world since it is basically obsolete given the rapid pace of hydroge

by Hypx 6y ago

Batteries are being disrupted by hydrogen though. It's unlikely we'll see this all-electric world since it is basically obsolete given the rapid pace of hydrogen advancement.

perl4ever 6y ago
I perceive your tone as matter of fact, like everyone knows and agrees. I don't think you are talking about conventional wisdom though. "the rapid pace of hydrogen advancement" makes me think of Nikola...and Hindenburg Research.
- Hypx 6y ago
  I agree it's not conventional wisdom yet, but given the way the evidence is piling up I'd say it's only a matter of time. Serious conversations about energy are nearly totally dominated by hydrogen and related subjects. There has been an endless stream of new hydrogen investments, with total investments well into the hundreds of billions of dollars. While there are still substantial numbers of naysayers, they always seem to be coming from a position of ignorance. I suspect if they actually knew about current events in the energy sector right now, and assuming they're open minded, then they should also agree that is the case. And if this is the case then yes, this is more matter of fact than speculation.
  - perl4ever 6y ago
    The other name I associate with hydrogen is Toyota, and I feel like most of the recent news from them has involved batteries. In fact I think I saw something about a next generation battery coming soon that's supposed to be a big advance. So I would assume they are at least not putting all their bets on hydrogen. If you want to be carbon neutral, but quickly refuel, why hydrogen and not just synthetic hydrocarbons? What's the point of replacing all the infrastructure?
    - Hypx 6y ago
      If that's all you've heard, it's likely that you are coming from a position of ignorance regarding events in the hydrogen world. There's hundreds of billions of dollars of investment right now, and even Toyota is arguably a small player in all of this. That said, they and a few others (Hyundai, Honda, several Chinese companies, and a bunch of startup companies), are the ones pushing this in passenger cars. So from that perspective, it's not too far off from the truth. However, outside of passenger cars hydrogen has been pretty much the dominant topic. 2020 was basically the year that utility companies, industrial companies, heavy transport companies, and multiple nations realized that hydrogen was both doable and in fact necessary in order to create a zero-emission world. Once you start looking at those industries, this becomes much more apparently. Meanwhile, there's been nothing of substances when it comes to new battery technology. There's always a major announcement of some kind, but it never materializes into anything real. Sure, companies continue to put money into it, and that includes Toyota, but I suspect a continuation of nothing being achieved in reality. > If you want to be carbon neutral, but quickly refuel, why hydrogen and not just synthetic hydrocarbons? What's the point of replacing all the infrastructure? Synthetic fuels are one of the major ideas being pursued as being part of the hydrogen society. That and ammonia, among a few other hydrogen storage ideas. These aren't ignored ideas, and multiple companies are pursuing them. We could very well ships or airplanes powered by chemical made by combining hydrogen with carbon or nitrogen. However, the main realization seems to be that hydrogen itself isn't that difficult to handle. With proper precautions and the right use materials it doesn't leak or corrode. It can be blended with natural gas at something like 15%, and if the pipelines are retrofitted it seems like 100% is perfectly doable. It can also be stored underground in vast quantities too, similar to how natural gas is stored in salt domes and caverns. Improvements in electrolysis and fuel cell technology seem to make using hydrogen both efficient and potentially very cheap. There's a lot of talk of green hydrogen being cheaper than fossil fuels within the decade. And you'll need anyways it for industrial heat and chemical related reasons, so we're almost at the point where hydrogen is unavoidable.
manigandham 6y ago
Hydrogen is just another form of battery or energy carrier, just like gasoline today. We still need batteries (of all kinds) to power the future as energy needs and mobility increases. There are still major issues with hydrogen containment since it can leak out of just about everything (being the smallest atomic structure) and also many hydrogen systems are used as fuel-cells to produce electricity rather than combustion for physical force. In that case, a Tesla vehicle powered by hydrogen would just have a fuel-cell energy store but still retain the same electric drivetrain.
- Hypx 6y ago
  Well that's the thing: fuel cells are batteries, just that you use water as your main resource instead of heavy metals. A major advantage since water costs nearly nothing and heavy metals cost a lot. You sometimes hear people make the argument that it's too inefficient, but from a purely theoretical point of view this shouldn't be case. Fuel cells and batteries should have very similar efficiency levels in the long run. If you buy into that concept, then it should be almost all fuel cells in the future, with other types of batteries playing an auxiliary role. > There are still major issues with hydrogen containment since it can leak out of just about everything (being the smallest atomic structure) Not really true anymore. We've made major advancements here, especially with newer tanks made out of carbon fiber and lined with HDPE. It's not something we have to worry about too much now. > and also many hydrogen systems are used as fuel-cells to produce electricity rather than combustion for physical force. In that case, a Tesla vehicle powered by hydrogen would just have a fuel-cell energy store but still retain the same electric drivetrain. They're nearly all like that. Fuel cell cars are basically electric cars with a fuel cell as the source of electricity. This is a huge win since you only need a small battery (or capacitor) for power smoothing and regenerative breaking, instead of having to lug a giant battery around.

by Hypx 6y ago

Batteries are being disrupted by hydrogen though. It's unlikely we'll see this all-electric world since it is basically obsolete given the rapid pace of hydrogen advancement.

perl4ever 6y ago

I perceive your tone as matter of fact, like everyone knows and agrees. I don't think you are talking about conventional wisdom though. "the rapid pace of hydrogen advancement" makes me think of Nikola...and Hindenburg Research.

Hypx 6y ago
I agree it's not conventional wisdom yet, but given the way the evidence is piling up I'd say it's only a matter of time. Serious conversations about energy are nearly totally dominated by hydrogen and related subjects. There has been an endless stream of new hydrogen investments, with total investments well into the hundreds of billions of dollars. While there are still substantial numbers of naysayers, they always seem to be coming from a position of ignorance. I suspect if they actually knew about current events in the energy sector right now, and assuming they're open minded, then they should also agree that is the case. And if this is the case then yes, this is more matter of fact than speculation.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  The other name I associate with hydrogen is Toyota, and I feel like most of the recent news from them has involved batteries. In fact I think I saw something about a next generation battery coming soon that's supposed to be a big advance. So I would assume they are at least not putting all their bets on hydrogen. If you want to be carbon neutral, but quickly refuel, why hydrogen and not just synthetic hydrocarbons? What's the point of replacing all the infrastructure?
  - Hypx 6y ago
    If that's all you've heard, it's likely that you are coming from a position of ignorance regarding events in the hydrogen world. There's hundreds of billions of dollars of investment right now, and even Toyota is arguably a small player in all of this. That said, they and a few others (Hyundai, Honda, several Chinese companies, and a bunch of startup companies), are the ones pushing this in passenger cars. So from that perspective, it's not too far off from the truth. However, outside of passenger cars hydrogen has been pretty much the dominant topic. 2020 was basically the year that utility companies, industrial companies, heavy transport companies, and multiple nations realized that hydrogen was both doable and in fact necessary in order to create a zero-emission world. Once you start looking at those industries, this becomes much more apparently. Meanwhile, there's been nothing of substances when it comes to new battery technology. There's always a major announcement of some kind, but it never materializes into anything real. Sure, companies continue to put money into it, and that includes Toyota, but I suspect a continuation of nothing being achieved in reality. > If you want to be carbon neutral, but quickly refuel, why hydrogen and not just synthetic hydrocarbons? What's the point of replacing all the infrastructure? Synthetic fuels are one of the major ideas being pursued as being part of the hydrogen society. That and ammonia, among a few other hydrogen storage ideas. These aren't ignored ideas, and multiple companies are pursuing them. We could very well ships or airplanes powered by chemical made by combining hydrogen with carbon or nitrogen. However, the main realization seems to be that hydrogen itself isn't that difficult to handle. With proper precautions and the right use materials it doesn't leak or corrode. It can be blended with natural gas at something like 15%, and if the pipelines are retrofitted it seems like 100% is perfectly doable. It can also be stored underground in vast quantities too, similar to how natural gas is stored in salt domes and caverns. Improvements in electrolysis and fuel cell technology seem to make using hydrogen both efficient and potentially very cheap. There's a lot of talk of green hydrogen being cheaper than fossil fuels within the decade. And you'll need anyways it for industrial heat and chemical related reasons, so we're almost at the point where hydrogen is unavoidable.

manigandham 6y ago

Hydrogen is just another form of battery or energy carrier, just like gasoline today. We still need batteries (of all kinds) to power the future as energy needs and mobility increases. There are still major issues with hydrogen containment since it can leak out of just about everything (being the smallest atomic structure) and also many hydrogen systems are used as fuel-cells to produce electricity rather than combustion for physical force. In that case, a Tesla vehicle powered by hydrogen would just have a fuel-cell energy store but still retain the same electric drivetrain.

Hypx 6y ago
Well that's the thing: fuel cells are batteries, just that you use water as your main resource instead of heavy metals. A major advantage since water costs nearly nothing and heavy metals cost a lot. You sometimes hear people make the argument that it's too inefficient, but from a purely theoretical point of view this shouldn't be case. Fuel cells and batteries should have very similar efficiency levels in the long run. If you buy into that concept, then it should be almost all fuel cells in the future, with other types of batteries playing an auxiliary role. > There are still major issues with hydrogen containment since it can leak out of just about everything (being the smallest atomic structure) Not really true anymore. We've made major advancements here, especially with newer tanks made out of carbon fiber and lined with HDPE. It's not something we have to worry about too much now. > and also many hydrogen systems are used as fuel-cells to produce electricity rather than combustion for physical force. In that case, a Tesla vehicle powered by hydrogen would just have a fuel-cell energy store but still retain the same electric drivetrain. They're nearly all like that. Fuel cell cars are basically electric cars with a fuel cell as the source of electricity. This is a huge win since you only need a small battery (or capacitor) for power smoothing and regenerative breaking, instead of having to lug a giant battery around.