4 ms·

Bad actors are returning to old-school methods of sowing chaos

20 points by kawera 6y ago

dukeofdoom 6y ago
yesterday was too real for them. they saw the guillotine coming. 70 million people support Trump. I don't know what impeaching will do. You can call it disinformation, but the MSN has their own spin that increasingly nobody believes in. Even the founding story of the country is under question, with statues destroyed by BLM earlier this summer. This is a general moral panic.
- frockington1 6y ago
  Congressional approval rating was at 18% in June. They can't act surprised when people start kicking in the front door.
  - hyko 6y ago
    You can disapprove of something without kicking its front door in.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - frockington1 6y ago
      How low do you think it should go before the people revolt? I personally thought this would happen a lot sooner considering both the left and the right seems to despise congress
      - hyko 6y ago
        If by revolt you mean an armed uprising, then we would need evidence of actual oppression, not just opinions about the quality of government. If you merely think that the government is shit, voting remains the best thing the average person can do to address that. An armed uprising is an absolutely terrible idea, it should be an absolute last resort in a world that’s basically fallen apart. Living in a strong and stable democracy is a privilege and the foundation on which all real wealth is built, both civic and material.
        frockington1 6y ago
        Right now 82% of the population is dissatisfied with congress and back to back presidential elections have large groups of people not believing the results. This doesn't look like a strong and stable democracy at the federal level
- Consultant32452 6y ago
  They are convinced that Trump is the river, but I fear he was the dam. I hope I'm wrong.
gotem 6y ago
I think we could stop this and make it end by banning silly comments that don’t add much value. One time I was on FB and someone commented something stupid and people get angry and then it is bad. Instead we should require comments to be more interesting and they will then stop chaos.
hikerclimb 6y ago
Nice
core-questions 6y ago
> Here at Nieman Lab, we’re long-time fans of the work being done at First Draft, which is working to protect communities around the world from harmful information Imagine being such a weak-minded person that you believe in the existence of "harmful information". It's not even necessarily untrue or wrong, it's just "harmful". Harmful to whom? The people who own the media? Propagandists? This redefinition of the word "harm" is typical Newspeak bullshit. Here's some harmful information for you: you're going to lose this war, because you're trying to impose censorship on people, and we hate it. We hate your patronizing attitude, your view that people are dumb and can't handle contrasting opinions about the world. People will build systems to route around this, to escape from your walled garden of comfortable verified propaganda. It's a shame, but not a surprise, that COVID is being used as an excuse to shove all this control down people's throats. 9/11 was used as an excuse to shove the Patriot Act and other freedom-resticting laws into place that did not prevent any terrorism or make anything better (except for people with make-work TSA jobs). I get the feeling that Nieman Lab's members like many others were just waiting for some excuse to push even more draconian censorship mechanisms onto social media. 20 years from now, no doubt, some other big catastrophe will be used as an excuse to restrict things further. You think you're doing a good thing, but you're just an apparatchik, just an agent of propagandists and moneyed interests, and it's obvious.
- Scalestein 6y ago
  Out of genuine curiosity what are examples of the control being implemented under the veil of COVID? Sure lockdowns and such are being ordered but once the vaccination is completed those won't be continued. I don't see the same type of issues as the patriot act after 9/11 which had clear long term impact.
  - tarboreus 6y ago
    Not OP, but I'm concerned about the fairly rigid and possibly overreaching take social media platforms are taking. At this point they should be some kind of public trust like Bell, and while for now they aren't subject to the first amendment, they are a major concern for those worried about freedom of speech as an ideal and a norm in a democratic society. With that said, I think Trump crossed a big, big line yesterday. I agree with actions taken on his accounts yesterday, but not the larger muzzling of (admittedly often misguided or even heinous) speech in the broader context.
gbpz 6y ago
One of the great things about the US having distributed governance is that, while this occured, it was barely a blip in my life. It didn't really affect any crucial services or facilities.
frockington1 6y ago
> Journalists and researchers will need to devise ways to understand the complexities of scope and impact This article talks about misinformation and then recommends journalists be part of the solution. Isn't poor journalism exactly how we got here?
meroes 6y ago
A large portion of HN takes too literal a definition of censorship and misinformation, this thread included. This leads to shortsighted and misplaced anger. And importantly, the largest powers will sidestep your lashings out/solutions. Every power since civilization wields its power and pushes its own propaganda. Misinformation and censorship fall under this umbrella. If you honestly think the MSN, social media, tech giants, large donors, or even the current government are worth revolting over, this message is for you. Any routing of power will be temporary and follow with quick usurpation by the next most powerful. I'm sorry to say, there is no quick solution to power coalescing, and you and I are not the next most powerful. There is only the steady march of technology, capital, and laws that equalize and distribute power which will lead to any sort of widely shared power equilibrium. Stop pointing blame at this or that company, this or that politician or party, and build something lasting. The game is played with power, and none of us have enough to make a worthwhile difference sorry to say. Something lasting could be spreading good will, developing a piece of software, making a scientific discovery, educating yourself or others, or even building capital for some end. Slowly and steadily pluck the reins of power from the few to the many. I don't know what a truly equally distributed system of power will look like, but I believe it's the only end worth fighting for. Maybe you have to align yourself with current powers to get there, but wielding the power should never be the end. If this diatribe seems out of place, it's because you aren't seeing all the terrible takes that were filling this thread in the first hour. But who am I to say.

20 points by kawera 6y ago

yesterday was too real for them. they saw the guillotine coming. 70 million people support Trump. I don't know what impeaching will do. You can call it disinformation, but the MSN has their own spin that increasingly nobody believes in. Even the founding story of the country is under question, with statues destroyed by BLM earlier this summer. This is a general moral panic.

frockington1 6y ago
Congressional approval rating was at 18% in June. They can't act surprised when people start kicking in the front door.
- hyko 6y ago
  You can disapprove of something without kicking its front door in.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - frockington1 6y ago
    How low do you think it should go before the people revolt? I personally thought this would happen a lot sooner considering both the left and the right seems to despise congress
    - hyko 6y ago
      If by revolt you mean an armed uprising, then we would need evidence of actual oppression, not just opinions about the quality of government. If you merely think that the government is shit, voting remains the best thing the average person can do to address that. An armed uprising is an absolutely terrible idea, it should be an absolute last resort in a world that’s basically fallen apart. Living in a strong and stable democracy is a privilege and the foundation on which all real wealth is built, both civic and material.
      - frockington1 6y ago
        Right now 82% of the population is dissatisfied with congress and back to back presidential elections have large groups of people not believing the results. This doesn't look like a strong and stable democracy at the federal level
Consultant32452 6y ago
They are convinced that Trump is the river, but I fear he was the dam. I hope I'm wrong.

gotem 6y ago

I think we could stop this and make it end by banning silly comments that don’t add much value. One time I was on FB and someone commented something stupid and people get angry and then it is bad. Instead we should require comments to be more interesting and they will then stop chaos.

hikerclimb 6y ago

Nice

core-questions 6y ago

> Here at Nieman Lab, we’re long-time fans of the work being done at First Draft, which is working to protect communities around the world from harmful information Imagine being such a weak-minded person that you believe in the existence of "harmful information". It's not even necessarily untrue or wrong, it's just "harmful". Harmful to whom? The people who own the media? Propagandists? This redefinition of the word "harm" is typical Newspeak bullshit. Here's some harmful information for you: you're going to lose this war, because you're trying to impose censorship on people, and we hate it. We hate your patronizing attitude, your view that people are dumb and can't handle contrasting opinions about the world. People will build systems to route around this, to escape from your walled garden of comfortable verified propaganda. It's a shame, but not a surprise, that COVID is being used as an excuse to shove all this control down people's throats. 9/11 was used as an excuse to shove the Patriot Act and other freedom-resticting laws into place that did not prevent any terrorism or make anything better (except for people with make-work TSA jobs). I get the feeling that Nieman Lab's members like many others were just waiting for some excuse to push even more draconian censorship mechanisms onto social media. 20 years from now, no doubt, some other big catastrophe will be used as an excuse to restrict things further. You think you're doing a good thing, but you're just an apparatchik, just an agent of propagandists and moneyed interests, and it's obvious.

Scalestein 6y ago
Out of genuine curiosity what are examples of the control being implemented under the veil of COVID? Sure lockdowns and such are being ordered but once the vaccination is completed those won't be continued. I don't see the same type of issues as the patriot act after 9/11 which had clear long term impact.
- tarboreus 6y ago
  Not OP, but I'm concerned about the fairly rigid and possibly overreaching take social media platforms are taking. At this point they should be some kind of public trust like Bell, and while for now they aren't subject to the first amendment, they are a major concern for those worried about freedom of speech as an ideal and a norm in a democratic society. With that said, I think Trump crossed a big, big line yesterday. I agree with actions taken on his accounts yesterday, but not the larger muzzling of (admittedly often misguided or even heinous) speech in the broader context.

gbpz 6y ago

One of the great things about the US having distributed governance is that, while this occured, it was barely a blip in my life. It didn't really affect any crucial services or facilities.

frockington1 6y ago

> Journalists and researchers will need to devise ways to understand the complexities of scope and impact This article talks about misinformation and then recommends journalists be part of the solution. Isn't poor journalism exactly how we got here?

meroes 6y ago

A large portion of HN takes too literal a definition of censorship and misinformation, this thread included. This leads to shortsighted and misplaced anger. And importantly, the largest powers will sidestep your lashings out/solutions. Every power since civilization wields its power and pushes its own propaganda. Misinformation and censorship fall under this umbrella. If you honestly think the MSN, social media, tech giants, large donors, or even the current government are worth revolting over, this message is for you. Any routing of power will be temporary and follow with quick usurpation by the next most powerful. I'm sorry to say, there is no quick solution to power coalescing, and you and I are not the next most powerful. There is only the steady march of technology, capital, and laws that equalize and distribute power which will lead to any sort of widely shared power equilibrium. Stop pointing blame at this or that company, this or that politician or party, and build something lasting. The game is played with power, and none of us have enough to make a worthwhile difference sorry to say. Something lasting could be spreading good will, developing a piece of software, making a scientific discovery, educating yourself or others, or even building capital for some end. Slowly and steadily pluck the reins of power from the few to the many. I don't know what a truly equally distributed system of power will look like, but I believe it's the only end worth fighting for. Maybe you have to align yourself with current powers to get there, but wielding the power should never be the end. If this diatribe seems out of place, it's because you aren't seeing all the terrible takes that were filling this thread in the first hour. But who am I to say.