5 ms·

Forged Subway Passes - Boston

30 points by obtino 15y ago

wccrawford 15y ago
So, to recap, if that commuter had told the operator to mind his own business, this would still be going on. Also, the T doesn't bother to count the number of passengers and compare it to the number of tickets sold. Also, the T's management doesn't read Craigslist, and hasn't for years.
- sp332 15y ago
  Also, the T doesn't bother to count the number of passengers and compare it to the number of tickets sold. Passengers can get on & off the train at multiple points along the line. Counting passengers would not be very helpful.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - kd0amg 15y ago
    I imagine it's also tricky to verify by counting when they sell daily, weekly, and monthly passes.
  - wccrawford 15y ago
    They manage to check the tickets for all those passengers. I've seen it in action.
    - rglullis 15y ago
      Go to Fenway on a game night. You just wave something that looks like a pass and you get in.
quesera 15y ago
MBTA is an embarrassment. The cards have serial numbers, but they weren't checked? Seriously? Not even in the nightly audit report? They do a nightly audit report, right? Billsf showed BART how to run an electronic ticketing system 15 years ago. Of course, he got prosecuted for it. But MBTA could surely have learned a thing or two. Amateurs.
- ajays 15y ago
  It's simple, really. It's not their money. If they run short of funds, they'll just dig into the taxpayers' wallets.
  - sspencer 15y ago
    Got it in 1. MBTA is 8 billion dollars in debt. They are the MA poster child for "too big too fail."
    - ajross 15y ago
      It's a public transit system. Is the goal to turn a profit or provide transit services? For comparison, how far in "debt" is the road system (which costs far more to operate and has zero "revenue")? I'm always amazed at the libertarians who freak out at the idea of subsidized transit (which is clearly what this is, even if there's a nominal balance sheet attached) as they drive their cars to work on the road system provided entirely at taxpayer expense.
      - anamax 15y ago
        > For comparison, how far in "debt" is the road system (which costs far more to operate and has zero "revenue")? When did MA repeal its gas taxes, license fees and taxes, and sales tax on auto related stuff?
        ajross 15y ago
        Ancient argument long settled. Those don't come close to meeting the cost of maintaining this stuff. Even roads (e.g. the pike) which are expressly mandated by law to support themselves via usage fees fail to break even. It's a hypocrisy argument: government subsidies on transportation are bad, except for the method of transportation you use. Some people actually take those buses and subways and have different perspective.
woodrow 15y ago
I'm actually kind of disappointed this wasn't more complicated, like actually hacking the system or altering cards (http://web.mit.edu/zacka/www/mbta.html http://web.mit.edu/zacka/www/mbta.html, http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N30/subway/Defcon_Presentation.pdf http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N30/subway/Defcon_Presentation.pdf) instead of just opportunism.
- eli 15y ago
  Unfortunately the real world usually isn't that interesting. Crooks in DC figured out that paper farecards had the same bits encoded over and over for the length of the magnetic strip. So they'd get a high value card and literally splice it into multiple high-value cards. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/07/washington_dc_m.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/07/washington_dc_...
- Anechoic 15y ago
  Getting a free ride doesn't have to be all that complicated. In the course of consulting work with a number of different transit agencies I accidentally found a way to get free rides on those systems with a $20 investment.
ynniv 15y ago
The passes described are neither "fake" nor "forged" - they were created by a contractor hired to create them, using the system that creates all T passes. The contractor wasn't authorized to create these, but we could call this a licensing issue. It isn't obvious that this is a criminal case (even tho it is being prosecuted as such) unless the MBTA gets special treatment under law. The details make this look more like a copyright violation than a counterfeiting case.
- patio11 15y ago
  This is hacker logic, and specifically, hacker-who-is-committed-to-piracy-being-noncriminal logic. The actual legal system will look at this like printing fraudulent checks on authentic check paper. The illegality of this is about as controversial a proposition as "Javascript is a programming language." If a lawyer told you Javascript was not a programming language, you'd immediately think "Cripes, he's a bozo."
  - ynniv 15y ago
    This is hacker logic I would expect it to be hacker logic, but I still don't agree. Company X hired a contractor to produce keys. Contractor Y produced more keys than he was authorized to produce, and sold them on the side. Are those additional keys "fraudulent"? Was he authorized to produce and sell any number of them as long as he paid for them? Clearly he had no intention of paying for these, but that doesn't make the keys he sold on the side any less valid than the keys he was authorized to produce. He is certainly liable for his contractual obligations (the money owed per key), which the article states the MBTA is trying to recoup. The actual legal system will look at this like printing fraudulent checks on authentic check paper. In this case, by the payroll company that was in charge of printing checks. Does that make them fraudulent? Is cashing them a crime? I would expect the payroll company to be liable for the damages, but I would not expect the company to be prosecuted for fraud. You have picked a particularly poor example because an unauthorized check deprives the account holder of the value of a check. An unauthorized MBTA pass deprives the MBTA of the possible revenue that a customer purchasing a discounted pass might have contributed, and additionally increases the operating costs (generally fixed) of the MBTA by little to none. specifically, hacker-who-is-committed-to-piracy-being-noncriminal logic. To my knowledge, most piracy cases are civil cases. I don't recall any being prosecuted by the Attorneys General. (EDIT: I am wrong. High value for-profit cases are prosecuted as criminal offenses by the FBI under Title 17 §506.) The illegality of this is about as controversial a proposition as "Javascript is a programming language." I don't know what kind of argumentation that is supposed to be, but it doesn't suit someone of your stature. This is a complex situation that few or none of us are properly equipped to resolve, but I still expect reasonable discussions, or else what's the point of being here?

30 points by obtino 15y ago

So, to recap, if that commuter had told the operator to mind his own business, this would still be going on. Also, the T doesn't bother to count the number of passengers and compare it to the number of tickets sold. Also, the T's management doesn't read Craigslist, and hasn't for years.

sp332 15y ago
Also, the T doesn't bother to count the number of passengers and compare it to the number of tickets sold. Passengers can get on & off the train at multiple points along the line. Counting passengers would not be very helpful.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- kd0amg 15y ago
  I imagine it's also tricky to verify by counting when they sell daily, weekly, and monthly passes.
- wccrawford 15y ago
  They manage to check the tickets for all those passengers. I've seen it in action.
  - rglullis 15y ago
    Go to Fenway on a game night. You just wave something that looks like a pass and you get in.

quesera 15y ago

MBTA is an embarrassment. The cards have serial numbers, but they weren't checked? Seriously? Not even in the nightly audit report? They do a nightly audit report, right? Billsf showed BART how to run an electronic ticketing system 15 years ago. Of course, he got prosecuted for it. But MBTA could surely have learned a thing or two. Amateurs.

ajays 15y ago
It's simple, really. It's not their money. If they run short of funds, they'll just dig into the taxpayers' wallets.
- sspencer 15y ago
  Got it in 1. MBTA is 8 billion dollars in debt. They are the MA poster child for "too big too fail."
  - ajross 15y ago
    It's a public transit system. Is the goal to turn a profit or provide transit services? For comparison, how far in "debt" is the road system (which costs far more to operate and has zero "revenue")? I'm always amazed at the libertarians who freak out at the idea of subsidized transit (which is clearly what this is, even if there's a nominal balance sheet attached) as they drive their cars to work on the road system provided entirely at taxpayer expense.
    - anamax 15y ago
      > For comparison, how far in "debt" is the road system (which costs far more to operate and has zero "revenue")? When did MA repeal its gas taxes, license fees and taxes, and sales tax on auto related stuff?
      - ajross 15y ago
        Ancient argument long settled. Those don't come close to meeting the cost of maintaining this stuff. Even roads (e.g. the pike) which are expressly mandated by law to support themselves via usage fees fail to break even. It's a hypocrisy argument: government subsidies on transportation are bad, except for the method of transportation you use. Some people actually take those buses and subways and have different perspective.

woodrow 15y ago

I'm actually kind of disappointed this wasn't more complicated, like actually hacking the system or altering cards (http://web.mit.edu/zacka/www/mbta.html http://web.mit.edu/zacka/www/mbta.html, http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N30/subway/Defcon_Presentation.pdf http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N30/subway/Defcon_Presentation.pdf) instead of just opportunism.

eli 15y ago
Unfortunately the real world usually isn't that interesting. Crooks in DC figured out that paper farecards had the same bits encoded over and over for the length of the magnetic strip. So they'd get a high value card and literally splice it into multiple high-value cards. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/07/washington_dc_m.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/07/washington_dc_...
Anechoic 15y ago
Getting a free ride doesn't have to be all that complicated. In the course of consulting work with a number of different transit agencies I accidentally found a way to get free rides on those systems with a $20 investment.

ynniv 15y ago

The passes described are neither "fake" nor "forged" - they were created by a contractor hired to create them, using the system that creates all T passes. The contractor wasn't authorized to create these, but we could call this a licensing issue. It isn't obvious that this is a criminal case (even tho it is being prosecuted as such) unless the MBTA gets special treatment under law. The details make this look more like a copyright violation than a counterfeiting case.

patio11 15y ago
This is hacker logic, and specifically, hacker-who-is-committed-to-piracy-being-noncriminal logic. The actual legal system will look at this like printing fraudulent checks on authentic check paper. The illegality of this is about as controversial a proposition as "Javascript is a programming language." If a lawyer told you Javascript was not a programming language, you'd immediately think "Cripes, he's a bozo."
- ynniv 15y ago
  This is hacker logic I would expect it to be hacker logic, but I still don't agree. Company X hired a contractor to produce keys. Contractor Y produced more keys than he was authorized to produce, and sold them on the side. Are those additional keys "fraudulent"? Was he authorized to produce and sell any number of them as long as he paid for them? Clearly he had no intention of paying for these, but that doesn't make the keys he sold on the side any less valid than the keys he was authorized to produce. He is certainly liable for his contractual obligations (the money owed per key), which the article states the MBTA is trying to recoup. The actual legal system will look at this like printing fraudulent checks on authentic check paper. In this case, by the payroll company that was in charge of printing checks. Does that make them fraudulent? Is cashing them a crime? I would expect the payroll company to be liable for the damages, but I would not expect the company to be prosecuted for fraud. You have picked a particularly poor example because an unauthorized check deprives the account holder of the value of a check. An unauthorized MBTA pass deprives the MBTA of the possible revenue that a customer purchasing a discounted pass might have contributed, and additionally increases the operating costs (generally fixed) of the MBTA by little to none. specifically, hacker-who-is-committed-to-piracy-being-noncriminal logic. To my knowledge, most piracy cases are civil cases. I don't recall any being prosecuted by the Attorneys General. (EDIT: I am wrong. High value for-profit cases are prosecuted as criminal offenses by the FBI under Title 17 §506.) The illegality of this is about as controversial a proposition as "Javascript is a programming language." I don't know what kind of argumentation that is supposed to be, but it doesn't suit someone of your stature. This is a complex situation that few or none of us are properly equipped to resolve, but I still expect reasonable discussions, or else what's the point of being here?